JRE MMA Show #179 with Josh Thompson & "Big" John McCarthy

[00:01] Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! [00:12] Gentlemen, we're live. What's happening? Good to see you. What is up? I enjoy your show. Your show's excellent. You guys have a really good MMA show. It's really solid. Thank you. Thank you. I kind of blew that. How'd you blow it? We can talk about that. You guys are not doing it anymore? [00:30] step back away when I started refereeing again. God damn it. You got to go back to doing it. You guys are great. You guys are a great combination. I think I might. What we did is we started doing McCarthy Mondays. [00:42] Because when he went back to refereeing, he's not allowed to talk about promotions, not allowed to talk about fighters and what's wrong and the things that possibly can make some changes in. [00:50] We just started McCarthy Monday where we just talk about the Joe Schilling situation. That's something we could talk about, right? Right. So I created a show for him to just only do on Mondays. He created. Nice. Well, it's his. It was. He created it. It's his input. I was just trying to find ways to keep him involved. I love that you're refereeing again. We need great referees, but... [01:10] I wish you were out there doing both. It doesn't make sense to me that you can't do both. It's not like you're not going to be a great referee while also still being able to comment objectively about promotions. It's important. It is important. It's important. Transparency, where's ever the problem with that? Exactly. But you get these people that, oh, no, because you might say something that is going to create a problem. And it's not a problem if it's the truth. It's ridiculous. I mean, if that was the case, how come I can do it as a commentator?

[01:40] Because you're the best? Yeah, but I mean, everybody should be able to have a voice, especially referees. If something happens, you're going to be a good person. [01:48] And you're a referee. And you could say, here's my perspective. This is why I did what I did. And you have it on a podcast on a regular basis. That's a benefit to everybody. So that is what I'm trying to create with him. I believe you're right. But what you run into is you run into some issues where the referee says too much. And then people come back at him. And then the commissions have to answer for it. And then the fighters dig on them. Good. People are talking. That's how shit gets solved. [02:18] on a downed opponent anymore. Why? Because we fucking complained forever. 12 to 6 elbows. They're legit again. Except in New Jersey. [02:26] Did you see the problem? Yeah. The goddamn problem? Well, we were in New Jersey. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. How the fuck do you guys not have 12 to 6 elbows? You can't make it any more complicated for the referees and the fighters. Bro, it's so dumb. It's the dumbest fucking thing of all time. And it's so unfair. [02:41] to the fighters themselves because you eat when we want the guy was part i wrote those things out and they were passed by the abc but we gave six months six months because you got to give the fighters time to train to make sure that they get it right okay and so it's put it in it works great and now you expect them to go back to one location in the middle of a fight exactly one location [03:06] And now they're going to automatically go back to the old rules. It's like, do you realize what you're doing to them? It doesn't make any sense either. The old rules are fucking stupid. We all agreed. Everybody, no one was like, no, no, no. Twelve to six elbows are too dangerous. Oh, yes, there was.

[03:21] Was there people? Oh, yeah. You're a broadcast partner. Shut the fuck up. Which one? Dan Cormier. No. I swear to God. He says some crazy shit. He does say some crazy shit. DC, I love you. I love him. He says some crazy shit. I love him. Why did he say the 12 to 6 elbows in the game? He goes, I think that rule should absolutely, that's dangerous. I swear. If we're going to ban anything, and I don't think we should ban anything, but if we're going to ban anything, sidekicks to the knees. [03:43] See, that right there. Right? I don't think we should. No, you shouldn't. I don't think we should, but I'm saying if we should, there's an argument that you're going to blow out a guy's knee. Yeah, exactly. His career will never be the same. Then we should absolutely ban kicks to the head and knees to the head. And we should ban. Yes, because what's worse, the blown out knee or the blown out brain? I'm agreeing with you. That's the point. I don't think we should ban anything. There you go. But there's one thing that does bother me, like the Khalil Roundtree, Modestus, Pekas, his knee went sideways. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's fucked for a year. [04:13] At least, if not forever. Okay, but what's the difference between that and we'll say, you know, Edson Barbosa – [04:22] Terry Adam. Terry Adam. And that kicked to the head. You don't think that that was more than a year? Come on. You know it was. Really was never the same again. Exactly. That's my point. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was like getting hit by a meteor. Oh, yeah. [04:33] That was just crazy. I mean, it was absolutely perfectly executed, beautiful technique that it absolutely altered. And then we talked about it all the time. By the way, that was the first wheel kick KO in the USA. Absolutely, it was. I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That crazy? Yeah. But you look and you go... [04:48] There are those fights and we say it all the time and you know you as the as a referee as a fighter, you know with him period is right here we go and watch this thing. Oh, I mean just that one was just insane, but you the fighters themselves they get paid.

[05:04] to get damaged. I hate to say that, but it's the truth. That's part of their pay, is they go in and they're going to accept some damage. But you don't want them to have... [05:12] unnecessary damage. Right. No, I agree with you. So you think we go rise in rules? [05:18] Because there's something to be said for that. Look at it. I've advocated for knees on the ground for a long time. It's never going to happen. My position is it's better in a ring because you can avoid them a little bit if you're mobile, right? If you're still conscious and you have defensive capability, you can move around knees and kicks. When the cage happens and you're butted up and someone stomps you, that's a totally different act. First off, the stomp I don't ever agree with. [05:40] And the reason why is this. Name me the fight that you saw that a stomp... [05:46] was an effective technique when the fighter was not already seriously hurt. It doesn't happen. [05:53] Sakuraba used to do it all the time after he hurt people. Every time he tried to do it when they weren't hurt, they just moved, and he was Mongolian stomping on nothing. Go ahead. Take a look at him. Yeah, I'd have to go back and watch. Yeah, there was Minowa and Phil Barone. He did that a couple times with him when Minowa couldn't get the takedown because that was their cornering him for that fight. There was that fight, and then Shogun and Ninja. Remember when they used to do the stomp through? They would stomp through. Ninja and Shogun, the brothers together. [06:21] Those guys were phenomenal, Adam. Oh, and people that only saw Shogun in pride missed it. Oh, yeah. You missed it. Excuse me. In the UFC. His fight against Quentin Rampage Jackson was, I mean, because a lot of people didn't, you know, going into that fight, you know, that's Rampage. You know, this guy's young.

[06:40] He absolutely just annihilated Rampage in that fight. And it was like... [06:46] Oh, my God, he's way better than I ever gave him credit for before that fight. That fight was... [06:53] That was a coming out party for Shogun. Yeah, he was a lethal striker. Lethal. And all those Curitiba guys were so hyper-aggressive. Yeah, his brother was just as nasty until he, you know, he started a little chinny after a couple shots big times. He started fighting big guys. Yeah, that was the problem. Didn't he fight Alexander? [07:10] Didn't he do who did he fight? He fought some heavyweight, right? Yeah, and he got he fought quite a few crushed Yeah, but he fought one guy where it was like, what is this? Why is he fighting this guy? I? [07:21] Yeah. I can't remember who it was. Was it Emelianenko's brother? I was going to say it was Alexander Emelianenko. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think it was that. I think it was. And it was like one of those fights like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a real fucking heavyweight, a big one with nasty striking. Yeah. [07:35] You know, I mean, he was fucking nasty. He was good. Yeah, he had some smooth striking. People don't give the Emilianenko's as a whole. Alexander was a little bit off, a little bit crazy. Oh, a lot. Okay. How about the dead baby on his back? Like the fucking death holding a baby tattooed on his back? Like, that's a choice. That's a fucking choice. See if you find Alexander Emilianenko's back tattoo.

[08:05] your mind that you're like, this should be on my back permanently. But that's the brother, and then you have Fedor as the guy who is [08:13] even better. Yeah. And look at Fedor is, you know, he was such a good guy. Look at that. Look at that fucking tattoo. There you go. What does it say in Russian, Jamie? Oh, Jesus. [08:23] That is the craziest thing. The baby's got a fucking sword and a crown. Oh, yeah. And then death is like, yes, let's kill everyone. Death is right there. It's not even a good drawing. That's some Russian prison shit for sure. That's some Russian prison shit. 100%. He's 100% committed. That's a ballpoint pen and a fucking sewing needle. Yep. [08:44] Yeah, they did that in a Russian prison, 100%. Urine and ash. Bro, that's a lot of time. God is with us. Are you sure? Are you sure? Based on that. [08:56] And then you got his brother. His brother has no tattoos. No tattoos. He has a small little wooden cross on his chest. I know, right? He's so stoic. He's awesome. Alexander Milionenko, James Thompson fight. [09:09] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [09:29] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners?

[09:59] eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The farmer's dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog [10:29] that... [10:29] is yes, obviously. So try the farmer's dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [10:38] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. [10:46] This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The new Dodge Charger Scat Pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? Let's start with a twin-turbo six-pack gas engine. All gas, no mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour. [11:16] traction, and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive and a selectable rear-wheel drive mode so you can get confident handling when you want it and the freedom to still be able to do burnouts. Available in both two-door and four-door models, the new Charger Scat Pack, it's loud, it's fast, it's powerful, and unapologetically Dodge. Learn more

[11:46] is a registered trademark of FCAUS LLC. Well, James Monson was an animal built like a fucking Greek god. Comes out, rawr! Got like terrifying fucking huge mask. The best is the look on Alexander's face throughout all of the things. [12:06] I'm going to fall asleep right now. Just completely stoic. Look at Thompson so worked up. Starts pounding his chest. He's shaking. Look at him. He's ready to fuck his ass. He just stepped out of a bar. He's no flexing at all. Doesn't even lift his hand up all the way. Say, hey, everybody. Got the belly hanging out a little bit. It's awesome. Look how chill he looks. Look how Joe Fedor looks, too. No worries at all. None. Look at James. He's so fucking hyped up. [12:35] Alexander is like, it's like he's ordering a sandwich. [12:40] It's like I'll have Swiss cheese and mustard. He's ordering a sandwich. [12:47] It's vicious. He rocks him, too, right off the bat. James comes charging at him. [12:53] Puts him down, but he wasn't hurt. It's like he fell down. [12:56] That hurt. That hurt, James. That hurt, James. Once he starts connecting. Oh, yeah. They had that Soviet-style fluid boxing that just whip punches. Look, I'll tell you what. I worked out with Fedor. [13:10] And it was a great moment in my life if you're going to sit there and say, [13:15] Well, if you're going to get your ass kicked, it's a great moment. But the one thing I always thought, you know, before watching him, reffing him, I go, he's got to have some kind of, you know, like,

[13:24] just hard strength, you know? Right, right. No, he's fast. [13:30] And I mean super fast. When he explodes, and his hands are down, so it's hard to see when the shots are coming. And everything he does, he just explodes into. And you go, oh, I get it. Because you've got to work really hard to try to stay up with his speed when he all of a sudden is exploding. And then it's like... [13:48] Oh. [13:49] He doesn't get tired, and you're starting to get tired because you're having to match that RPM that he's at. Right. [13:54] And he's not a big heavyweight either. No, he's not. Which I think is a real benefit. I think it is. Until you're fighting a guy like Ngannou. Yeah. And I'm like, there's a problem there. Oh, yeah. Because that guy can be patient, 265 naturally, nuclear power. Ngannou hits you anywhere in the head. It's a problem. You're in trouble. Yeah, it's a real problem. He hit Philip Lins. Hit him on the basic, almost. We don't even say the temple. Hit him almost to the top of the head. And look, he was out. [14:24] body, that guy's got the ability to hurt, you know, when he fought Kane. Yeah. You know, take a look. Yeah. It wasn't a great shot. Right. But it hurt him. Yeah. He's got crazy power. Yeah. Just nuts. But Fedor was a different thing because Fedor had that, like, that Russian style of movement that you see, like, Dimitri Bival has with a real relax. And then they explode. Yeah. And the footwork and movement. That little bit of a bounce. He's got that little bit of a bounce in and out. Just sits there and wait. And he waits for your motion to come where he wants it to be. [14:54] distance and just cracks. Fado did a really good job of coming around your guard as well. So it wasn't just a big straight right all the time. Rich Franklin used to do that as well. He'd come around your guard and he'd put your hands up. And Fado, he did a great job with that. Coming around and landing the big overhand right and then he'd come up uppercut, then he'd take you down or hip toss you, body lock you. And if you took him to the ground, off his back, he's got one of the quickest fucking arm bars in the game. Which is nuts. His transitions are smooth. Hongman Choi, he arm barred a seven foot tall dude. He looks like a little kid. He's all stretched out.

[15:24] It's like, he's off the ground completely. [15:27] He was great everywhere. And, you know, you think about him as being this overall picture of, like, one of the greatest, if not the greatest MMA fighter of all time. But people forget, like, his stand-up was so good that the Cro-Cop fight was mostly stand-up. He wrote the blueprint on how to beat Cro-Cop. Exactly. Which, you've got to be him to do it, though. Yeah. I mean, he, first of all, his stand-up has always been real dangerous. [15:57] the knee up and catching it. Yeah, up high. But how many people had you seen [16:03] that would back Cro Cop onto his back foot and march forward. Nobody. Exactly. Not in his prime. That was the difference is when you looked at it, he told himself, nope. [16:13] I'm going to make you go backwards. And it took a lot of what Crow Cop did, and it just nullified a lot of it. Well, a lot of it was the threat of the grappling, right? Oh, yeah. That was a big part of it. Well, not with that, because then Fedor didn't have to worry about if he did slip and fall. If he threw a big shot and he got cut from underneath, if he did fall to the ground. Exactly. If Crow Cop wasn't going to fall to the ground, he could just hop back up. Yeah. So there was that. And then on top of it, too, when you fought him in the phone booth, you're not worried as much for that head kick to get there if I'm within inches of you. That left kick was... Yeah. [16:43] where the shin is like halfway into Heath's ribs. Oh, yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about. You know that picture? Yes, I do. It's crazy. You see Crocop's shin is just so deep. You just feel your own liver. I've seen the Vanderlei ones because Vanderlei has his ribs were just tore up from their fight. Look at that picture. Look at that picture. Bro, that's crazy. Do you know how much that hurts? I mean, that is. Actually, I do.

[17:07] That's the part where you look at people and you go, you know, do you realize what, you know, yeah, that would hurt a little. No. [17:13] No, no. Your entire body is going, I quit. It just seizes up. He had such explosive power. And to me, he was like the first guy to figure out how to transition from kickboxing to MMA. Because he did it with explosiveness. But Maurice Smith, come on, you've got to give him a guess. That's true. Maurice Smith, I've got to give him a guess. That's true. Maurice was the first. But Krokop was in that same era, and he was doing it in pride. And all those other guys like Ernesto Hoost, it didn't really work out for them. [17:43] kickboxing fight, but even when they were fighting like bigger, like [17:47] Krokop fucked up Bob Sapp. Like, same era. Same time. Exactly. Same time period. It was that explosiveness. Whereas, like, guys like Peter Ertz, that wouldn't translate as well in MMA. Elite strikers, but they wanted to get into a rhythm. They wanted to, like, get into situations and exchanges. And with Krokop, it was these one shots were coming at you like nuclear missiles, and it was a different threat. It was a completely different threat than a lot of other guys because he was so explosive. Yeah. Yeah. [18:17] Krokop was, what a great guy. [18:19] Oh, he's an awesome guy. But his left kick has to be. [18:24] the best left kick there's ever been in the sport of MMA. Yeah, I don't think you could even think of a second place. Like, who's got a better left kick than Kroka? Maybe Edson Barboza's switch kick. Yeah. That switch kick was preposterous. Yeah, it's fast and quick, so accurate, too. In his prime, he would kick, and I'd be like, is there something wrong with my eyes? So fast. It was fast. So fast. It was just like a 120-pound guy. Yeah. It was so fast. Yeah, Dana called me a couple times to fight him, and I was like ranked number three.

[18:54] 15, I'm like, no. [18:57] Give me a higher rank. Sorry, dude. It's not that I wouldn't find it. Give me a higher rank. Make it make sense. Help me help you. At this time in my life, make it make sense. [19:15] When he came in, though, you've got to look at Barbosa. He's been there a long time now when you think about it. Still going at it. But when he came in. [19:23] It was like, dude, this is a next level of stand-up ability with what this guy can do. And it was like... And oddly, mostly kicks. Yeah. Like, his boxing wasn't threatening like his kicks were. It was not equal. No, no. It was mostly kicks. You're right. No. If he could have... I developed something along the Jose Aldo level of boxing, where he ripped the body, came back on top of the head with those kicks. I mean, Aldo's takedown defense was nuts. Probably the best. I think probably the best in the sport that we've seen. I mean, honestly. Other than BJ and his prime. [19:53] Yeah, right, with the one-leg hop. He's prime was ridiculous. His balance was fucking insane. Yeah. But I think he's the only guy that didn't get taken down by Marab. [20:01] When Merab and him fought three crazy rounds, I think Merab went for like 90 fucking takedowns or something. And I don't think he took Merab. I don't think Merab took him down. I think Merab mostly won that fight up against the cage, hitting him with punches, working for takedowns, cage damage. Extremely underestimated Jose Aldo's takedown defense. It's the funny, you take a look and... [20:21] the [20:22] Aldo doesn't now, all of a sudden, it's kind of like the Anderson Silva thing. All of a sudden, it's like, well, let's talk about the very best in the 145-pound. And look, Alexander Volkanovsky is right there. He's phenomenal. I'm not saying that.

[20:35] Don't forget... [20:36] What Jose Aldo did. Absolutely. I mean, through the WEC, into being the UFC champion, all those fights, man. I'll tell you what. That guy was absolutely nuts as far as how good he was at one time. Well, I think it was also because he was an elite soccer player. And the ability to, like, if you watch a live soccer game, a professional soccer match, you're like, oh, Jesus. These guys, they don't get to slow down. They don't have a, like, there's no halftime. There's no, like, big break for commercials. There's no bullshit. They just go. [21:06] There's no timeouts. Giant fucking legs. They all have insane leg power because they're just sprinting all day long. And you go, oh, well, that would translate perfectly to MMA for kicking, for moving, for footwork. Think about all – it's not just that, right? It's the stop and go. Stop and go like in a real fight, right? I get a takedown. I get to rest for a second. Then he postures back up and gets back to his feet. I got to go again, sprints again, get the takedown. In soccer, same thing. You run hard down the line. Oh, the ball gets turned back. Now you kind of jog back a little bit. Now the ball gets played to you. [21:36] This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist and trust me, I know. [22:02] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier.

[22:32] best friends something every dog owner wants the answer to that is yes obviously so try the farmer's dog today and get 50 off your first box of fresh healthy food [22:45] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a bunch of different bases that if you come from them, they have a big advantage. It puts you in a big advantage in different sports. Yeah, soccer and wrestling. Those two things. The grinding of the wrestling and just the cardio fatigue and understanding that I can push through when I get tired. [23:15] that defender there and you cross it across and you're it's that sprinting down there to beat him but then also to in wrestling knowing that you can break another human being like i need to break you mentally grind on you and hang on you those two sports i think are huge for the sport and getting used to suffering dehydrated right there's a big factor yeah the way that's getting used to suffering [23:37] But the weight cuts and having to compete on the same day as weight cuts is a big difference. And for people that have never done that before and don't know, it's fucking hard. Even 24 hours is hard. Weight cutting is the grossest thing in MMA. It is. They should figure out a way to stop it. [23:52] I don't know what the way is. There is no way. You're going to talk about one of the most dangerous things that you do with it. Think about this, Joe. Every sport, soccer, football, baseball, basketball, they all have team chefs. They all have all these things. As far as we want our athletes to be as physically ready and have the right nutrition and all these things, what's the sports that...

[24:15] We go and we starve our athletes and dehydrate them. [24:19] 24 hours before occasion. It's the dumbest thing ever. 24 hours before the most demanding, most dangerous sport in the world. Yep. But, Joe, even if we did it the same day, fighters would still cut weight to try and make that weight. They would still do that to themselves. The question is I wonder if there's a way to prevent that. Like the way to prevent that, I would say, is everybody, here's your mandate. No one's getting out of shape anymore because we're going to have random weigh-ins. Right. [24:41] So we're going to just show up at your fucking gym. Just can't do it. But could you? Like, let's say you fight at 170. [24:47] You cannot weigh more than 180. See, here's the... On any given day. I'll show up at your fucking house at 7 in the morning. Josh, get on the scale. 175. This is not good. You could do it as a promotion. [24:59] You can't do it as an industry within the sport. And the reason why I'm saying that is, first off, you have all these fighters, we'll say. [25:09] everywhere, okay, all over the world, and you [25:12] For an athletic commission, we'll say the state of California, state of Texas, they have to have that authority. [25:18] particular fighter licensed for them to say, we want to weigh you. If they're not licensed in that state, [25:26] on that year. [25:28] They can sit there and go, no. But if it got adopted by the UFC, I bet most of the organizations would adopt it as well. But again, that's the UFC as a promotion. The UFC is talked about. And the UFC has the money. [25:40] to actually do that but it's gonna cost them a lot of money and you'll look at I understand why the promotion doesn't want to lose money I just way I see me better I think guys have been way better can absolutely we've seen and it's exactly what you're talking about stop cutting as much way you could sit there and you know the only way an athletic commission could kind of do it and but this is bad on promotions is an athletic commission to sit there and say you're allowed to weigh no more than five pounds

[26:04] more than that weigh-in weight. [26:06] Okay? But here's your problems with it. [26:10] First off, the promotion can lose fights. The promotion doesn't want to lose fights. True. Okay, and the second part is... [26:16] What's saying that the fighter themselves is not keeping themselves dehydrated to make that five pound, and now they're going in even more dehydrated into the fight, which could cause them more problems? Well, they couldn't be dehydrated through their entire camp, and that's where you institute randoms. That's why your randoms would work if... [26:33] The promotion was doing it. Yeah, but it would have to. But to do it sport-wide, it would be almost impossible. It would have to take a long time to figure out how to do it properly and not lose fights. Yeah. Because there's too many guys that fuck around. Oh. You know, right? There's too many guys that, like, how many times did Jon Jones not really train? Oh, yeah. You know, like the Gustafson fight, the first one, they said he didn't really train. Ten days. Showed up a little bit here and there, didn't really train. So if there's a guy like that, what, are you going to not let him fight? Like, what are you going to do? [27:03] No, that's too much. You also have guys like Michael Morales right now, 170-pounders, walking around like, huge. 220 pounds. 210, 212, 205. I mean, there's a few of those guys where I'm standing next to them like Gregory Rodriguez. I'm like, how? Yeah. How? How are you ever 185 pounds? How was Alex 185 pounds? I stand next to him and go, you've got to be shitting me. Nuts. Nuts. It's unbelievable.

[27:33] as well. It didn't. There's no doubt about it. You can go back and look at his fights. He got hurt by shots that were not as hard as the ones he's taken at 205. Based upon it's that weight cut. It's the point of diminishing returns. It is. It's like there's a place where you're just doing it too much. And you kind of love to see freaks [27:52] You love to see a guy like Alex weighing at 185. You're like, good luck with that. Good luck with his 226-pound fucking Amazon warrior that pretended to be 185 for five minutes. For five minutes. But you take a look at him. I'm so surprised how he can make the weight. When you pass by him and you see how tall he is, how big he is, and you see him with the face off of Cyril Garn right now, you're like... [28:13] How would this guy ever make 185? He's 250 now. Oh, yeah. Which is crazy. I saw him last week, and it's like... [28:20] Dude, 250 means that's almost 70 pounds different from his UFC debut. [28:28] The only thing that makes me believe that we're going to see a better Alex is because he doesn't have to kill himself. Yeah, but he also put on muscle. Yeah. And there's an issue with that. Exactly. Again, diminishing returns. How much is that muscle going to do? This is where you try to tell all fighters. And, you know, it's... [28:46] Joe, when you were fighting in Taekwondo, did you care about the strong guy or did you care about the fast guy? The difference is MMA with grappling. The difference is with weight. Like if you get a big, heavy guy and he gets on top of you, all your speed is gone. Absolutely. You're right. It's gone within the first three or four minutes. But the problem with being the bigger...

[29:06] stronger guy in the lighter weight class is you're never the faster guy. And so you've got to be able to, [29:14] that person, right? [29:16] to be effective. And it only lasts for a certain amount of time if you had to dehydrate yourself to that point, where speed is always there. [29:25] when someone has it to a point unless they get tired. And that speed is hard for you to handle. But there's guys that were big for the weight class and had ridiculous speed. Like Conor McGregor is a perfect example of that. Conor at 145 was fast as fast. [29:40] Connor was absolutely dehydrated to the point of being a concentration camp victim. Oh, yeah, he looked like death. I mean, it was unbelievable. However, once he got in there, he was fast as fuck. He used to lose so much at 145. [29:55] He was killing himself. I remember the weigh-ins, like interviewing him at weigh-ins, like this is crazy. Skeletor. Oh, my God. But then you see him the next day all full. I know. He looked good. Looking fucking handsome. He was also, what was his age back then? 26, 27? Right, right. You can't do that now. No, you can't do that now. No, it gets to a certain point in time when you have to realize you're cutting too much weight and it's actually ruining your career. But I think the evidence has been pretty clear. When you see guys go up in weight after killing themselves for so long, they've had success. A lot of guys have. Look at Max. [30:25] I was just about to bring him up. I just had Dustin Poirier on the podcast yesterday, and we were just talking about how he's like, look, Max, the first time he came up to 55, didn't put the weight on properly. Second time, put it on properly. He's like...

[30:36] significant difference in power, mobility, movement. The BMF fight with Gaethje? Yeah. Oh, come on, man. That guy should have never went down to 45 again to fight Topori. It's too much loss. Yeah. [30:47] What? What are you pointing at that? Because we had that argument about that exact thing of, he would, Josh was saying, look, he should never, it was a championship fight. He was getting a world title fight at 145. And I said, look, it's a world title fight. I understand why he's going back down. He's going, he's making a huge mistake. It should never take it. He should stay at 155. You know, work yourself into a title fight. And I go... [31:11] I understand why he's taking it. That made him the number one contender. He beat Justin Gaethje. He could have fought Islam. I understand why he took the fight at 45. Maybe he would have favored that fight with Ilya, because Ilya is a smaller guy than Islam. [31:24] Because if you think about it, Islam, he fucking smothers everybody. Yeah, he does. And he's striking as dangerous as fuck. Well, of course, you know. I've tried to do it a hundred thousand times. But it's like that guy, he's so fucking terrifying once he gets a hold of you. Like, he submits everybody. He's a whole lot better in the stand-up than people give him credit for. Oh, he is? His stand-up is actually really good now. He head-kicked Volkanovsky. Oh, yeah. I don't care if Volkanovsky took it on 11 days notice. He's still head-kicked Volkanovsky. He's got a sneaky left head-kick, high-kick. It's nasty. He fucks people up standing up, and that's part of the problem. [31:54] is that you get accustomed to thinking about this guy as a grappler. You're worried about the takedown, exactly. And then all of a sudden, bing. Yeah. My point was, though, was that he put the weight on properly. He looked fantastic against Justin Gaethje. And then to go back down there to fight Iliad, I was like, it doesn't make sense. You're the number one guy or number two guy. It's hard on your body. It is. You kill yourself to get back down, and then he gets knocked out, which we had never seen before. Well, that's Roy Jones Jr., too, right? Remember when Roy Jones Jr. went up and fought Ruiz, and then he went all the way down to 75 and got knocked out by Tarver. Yep.

[32:24] I don't think your body wants to go back down again. You put on all that weight over like a year. You're lifting weights. And Max had a ridiculous strength and conditioning program. He put real weight on. He looked very good at 55. When Max fought... [32:38] Aldo the first time for the title. He, uh... [32:41] He weighed in, obviously weighed in at championship weight 145. The night of the fight, Joe, now he was in street clothes, but they put him on a scale, 178. What? I swear to God. 170. Now he was still clothed. That's crazy. I don't know. What is he wearing? Rocks in his pockets? That's crazy. Frank Shamrock with quarters in his pockets. Right. What do you want, Tito? Let's just be real charitable and say his clothes weighed 10 pounds. Exactly. [33:07] That's crazy. You're looking at more than 20 pounds. That's crazy. But it happens all the time. The show that just happened in California at the Inuit doing with that, the MVP, the one guy... [33:18] 27-pound difference in weight at 170 pounds came in 27, 197. Who was it? I want to say his name. Was it the guys right before Saladin? Yeah. Parnas? Freema? Freema? [33:32] Fremont? It starts with a Z, I want to say. I can't think of it. But 27 pounds. Well, obviously, the biggest one was Rumble Johnson. Oh, my God. Rumble Johnson was the craziest. He would weigh [redacted address]. 170? But basically what Morales is doing right now. Yeah, yeah. [33:46] MVP event on Netflix. Fazil. Fazil, there you go. Namo Fazil recorded the highest weight gain, 27.2 pounds. That's insane. Can you believe that? That's insane. That's so much.

[33:59] He got into the cage at 198 for a 170-pound fight. I would love to get Morales on the scales. [34:05] Like right before he fought Sean Brady? Oh, yeah. Excuse me, sir. Sean Brady is a thick guy. [34:13] He's not super tall, but he's thick. Oh, yeah. He is put together. [34:17] And Morales made him look like a lightweight. Like he was in the wrong division. Exactly. He looked like a lightweight. I was trying to make sense of it watching it on TV. I thought maybe it was the camera angle. And then they shifted. I was like, no, he's still bigger than him when he's further away. He's further away. He's still bigger. He's way bigger than him. [34:32] Yeah, it was a that's a crazy situation where a guy can do that. And it's like the Pereira situation 88-5-2 when a guy can do that. How long can you do it? That's so nice, you know, because you're basically killing your kidneys every time you do it. You're just taking a little bit out of them. That was the problem with AJ, you know? Yeah, like I used to coach and corner AJ early in his career when he first came to the UFC. I [34:53] And that was his problem. He'd make weight. Sometimes he'd make it. Sometimes he would. He missed weight a lot to the point where. Do you think that affected whatever happened? Yeah. Absolutely. God, that's fucking horrible. Yeah. That's fucking horrible. Again. [35:04] You're leaving small bits and pieces of yourself in that damn cage every time. Even when you win. He died. I was like, no. There's a true science to cutting weight. And he didn't have it down. He wrestled NCAA. He wrestled Division II. He was a really good wrestler. He knew how to make weight. But then trying to kill himself to get to 70 every single time. Which he never had to be at. He never had to be at. I mean, he has massive power. He did great at heavyweight. And he's fast. He beat Orlovsky at heavyweight.

[35:34] A long time ago when Arlovsky was still super legit. Broke Arlovsky's job. Not that Arlovsky's not super legit. Now, fucking guy wins bare-knuckle heavyweight championship at like 100 years old. Dude, you gotta love it. And fought it smart. Yeah. You take a look at Andre Arlovsky, and people say whatever they want about his career is amazing. Since UFC 28 was his first show. Nuts. Nuts. Okay, went all the way into today's day, basically. [36:02] But he changed his style. Arlovsky was a big power puncher for a long time and then was getting hit with big shots and said, you know what, I'm going to be a volume guy. And he was successful with it and didn't take near as much damage. Yeah, he fought a lot more technical, a lot slicker. Didn't take big chances. Beat a lot of good guys, too. Beat Travis Brown when Travis was in his prime. That fight with Travis Brown was awesome. [36:29] Frickin' awesome fight. Awesome fight. Awesome fight. Look at him. He beat Rothwell. He tore Rothwell up. Which is, a lot of people were super surprised by that. Oh, yeah. A lot of people thought, you know, Rothwell's a tank of a man. Yeah. And he's a fuckin' scary big puncher, and he just looks hairy like a fuckin' bear. He's scary. Rothwell's close to 400 pounds. That's crazy. That's massive. Is that real? Yeah. He's real. He's really that big? He's that big. He's that big. He's unbelievably big. But meanwhile, he's the one getting busted up in this fight. [36:59] Arlovsky was just fighting very clever. [37:01] Just so tough after all these years. You watch this fight right now, they think that this fight gets stopped for that cut on his forehead. That is not why. He has a cut on his eye running up into his tear duct.

[37:13] And that's why it wasn't that big of a cut. But any time it goes to the tear duct, there's the doctor saying, oh, no, it's over. Yeah, to touch on what John was saying, though, is it really just comes down to how he changed his style of fighting. He either fought you all the way in or all the way out. He fought you in that phone booth so you couldn't get off big power shots to avoid being knocked out. Because he went through a phase where he was getting clipped a lot and getting knocked out. Getting hurt. Yeah. So he made that adjustment. That's good on him. And all those years in the game, never lost his enthusiasm. No. You know? He's a character. [37:43] I got a shit. Who are you talking? He's fighting influencers at shows. Have you? I saw that. [37:49] Little kid. That was crazy. Imagine those fucking dumb kids. All right. Little midgets running around trying to fucking get him. I was like, what are you guys doing? Are you crazy? Do you know who that is? The best part was that the influencer kid goes, hey, you can fight my bodyguard. Oh, yeah. The bodyguard's in the background going, uh-uh. Sure. Yeah, let's do it. Uh-uh. It's like, yeah, I'll fight him. That's a good idea. If your bodyguard doesn't know who Erlovsky is, you need to get a new bodyguard. [38:12] he's telling them that my bodyguard will find him i was like oh shit oh jesus this episode is brought to you by blinds.com texas summers don't mess around with patio surfaces easily reaching 150 degrees hot enough to make your backyard feel like a punishment and if your windows are bare indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees get ahead of it with custom solar shades for your den and

[38:42] If you want to do it yourself or have a pro handle everything, they've got you covered. It's all online so you can shop whenever you want but still have access to real design professionals. They'll even send free samples. Blinds.com has been doing this for 30 years, and they back everything with a 100% satisfaction guarantee so you can order with confidence. Right now, my listeners can get an exclusive 40% off when you spend $500 or more at Blinds.com and use the promo code ROGAN40. [39:12] Limited time offer, blinds.com, promo code ROGAN40. Rules and restrictions apply. [39:19] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. [39:49] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [40:12] Did you guys watch the Rico Verhoeven-Usyk fight? Oh, yes. I watched the ending, yeah. Oh, yes. I thought it was a... I don't want to say robbery, because I guess apparently Usyk was up on the scorecards 2-1. That's robbery. That's the robbery. Yeah. That's the robbery. If that's the case, that's the robbery. He was up, I guess... I thought, first off, Rico Verhoeven, you know, we know what he's been in kickboxing, and he's been fantastic. Greatest of all time. Unbelievable. Greatest of all time. Yeah, and you can look back on certain people, you know, Ernesto Hust, how great he was.

[40:42] Badahari was a badass. All of them were awesome, but Rico's accomplished more than anybody. Absolutely. He's been undefeated for more than 10 years. In kickboxing, that's nuts. It is. That's nuts. Especially with the amount of rounds, comparatively and stuff, because you can have a bad round, and it can really affect your fight, just like MMA. Mm-hmm. [40:58] But this fight, I really thought going in, I go, look, Rico will do okay for the first couple rounds, and then it's going to start to get to him. [41:05] I was shocked by it. He fought very clever. He didn't fight big. He actually created the problems of closing that distance. [41:14] Every time he'd look how close he'd get, he kept on getting into the phone booth. And he would do work. And it was causing Usyk nothing but problems. Also, Rico is known for his discipline and his fitness. Yes. Like, he's a guy who always has tremendous conditioning. And I think there's a lot of heavyweights that would be surprised at the work that this guy does and the pace that he could put on. So a lot of people are like, oh, he's going to get tired. He only fights three-minute rounds and five rounds. [41:41] It gets past five rounds, I'm wondering how he's going to be able to hold that pace. The guy's such a cardio fiend, and he's always shredded. And he's so used to combat, too, that getting in there, just fighting Usyk, it's not a big deal. That right hand right there was, I mean, beautiful. Bro, he was winning 8-2, in my eyes. Okay. I thought he was winning 8-2 going into the 11th round when the fight was stopped. Now, the fight shouldn't have been stopped the way it was stopped, but also... [42:08] That was in eight seconds after the knockdown. So after he gets knocked down, he doesn't have his mouthpiece. So then they have to go over to the corner. They rinse off his mouthpiece. That's a mistake right there. Yeah, the whole thing's a mistake. It takes like 30 seconds. And then the referee stops it when he's still standing, moving around. Look, if there's one of the things that changed in boxing, since I referee boxing now. So here it is right here. This is the end. We could watch it real quick.

[42:32] So this is the end. Look at all this time. So he's up, and he goes over. Oh, this is a mistake right here. Lumbering over to his corner. Hey, come on over. Watch the first thing that happens, and this is what we'll talk about. Oh, oh, it dropped. [42:43] That's on purpose. Of course. I'm doing that on purpose. Of course, I would. Any second counts. [42:49] But then look at this. So he swarms him with some punches, but Rico's moving. [42:54] He's covering up. He's moving. And what is he supposed to do? What is he supposed to do? That's a bad stoppage. I agree with you. So if you're going to stop it because you felt like the first knockdown was too much... [43:04] Why would you let him rinse the glove off? And he didn't take significant damage after that. It's a bad stoppage. Well, and it's also the end of the round. One second. It's the end of the round. It's literally the end of the round. I think he actually stops it when the round's over. Look, as the referee, Joe, you know all of this. And if you don't... [43:20] You're not doing your job. First off, you know he's got a full minute. If I let this go one second, he's got a full minute to recover here. Exactly. Even if I did think he was a little bit hurt. Now, I think that if that was a legitimate eight count and they went right back to fighting, he would have stopped him there. Maybe. I think he was really rocked. When you see him go back to his corner, maybe is the key word. See, one of the things that used to be, though, in boxing, it was always that you would, if a mouthpiece hit the ground, you had to take it to the corner, have it rinsed with water, and have it placed back in the fighter's mouth. Right. [43:50] That's not the way it is anymore. Because of MMA and the fact that we take a mouthpiece off of the ground and stuff it right back in the fighter's mouth, they have now changed to the point of they do the same thing. And the difference is, many times we'll hand the mouthpiece to the fighter.

[44:06] to the MMA fighter because they have gloveless fingers. Right. Right? And they put it back in. Sometimes we'll put it back in depending upon situations. But in boxing now, you take it. I'll put it back in his mouth. I'll say, is that good? [44:19] Boom, fight. Right. And you don't – Is that universal? Is that in Egypt as well? Do you think that's possible? You're talking about under the unified rules of boxing now, which is North America. Okay. Okay. That's – most of the time you go to Egypt, they're still fighting under the unified rules. But the refereeing is always going to be different when you get a referee from England or somewhere. It's a little bit different. But I wonder if the referee rules are different over there, if you're supposed to rinse off the mouthpiece before you put it back. [44:49] No, what it means is you have not advanced as a referee to understand what we do now. Right, but what I'm saying is do they have different rules over there? No, this is what I'm saying. Definitely not? You have not advanced as a referee to understand what we do now. Mouthpiece goes down, you pick it up, you put it right back in the face. Can you? Yes. So it's like when the UFC goes to a country that doesn't have a commission, they'll bring Herb Dean, they'll bring referees with them, so they know the rules to make sure that something like this doesn't happen. That referee hasn't followed up with the rules in a big-time fight, so it costs them. [45:19] He's not gone and advanced his training to understand this is what we do now, and this is why. [45:27] I don't want to take that time from Usyk because Usyk did his job. Right. He hit him with an uppercut that absolutely blasted him, puts him on the mat. You go and he gets up. You give him a mandatory. Now his mouthpiece comes out. Am I going to walk it over to a corner and have that mouthpiece washed out with water, which does what for it? Right. Does it disinfect it? Kills all the cooties. Exactly, okay? And that's the real thing. So it doesn't do anything.

[45:57] the thing from the mouthpiece. But normally it's just spitting blood if that's what's there. [46:02] Put it back in, boom, bring him back in as abruptly as you can to make it fair for Usyk, who gained an advantage in the fight. You don't want to give the advantage to Verhoeven. Also, his mouthpiece came out earlier in the fight as well. It's like, that's a bad mouthpiece for a guy who's a world-class kickboxer, world champion kickboxer. That thing should be so hard for you to pull out. Yeah, yeah. It's odd that it kept falling out of his mouth. Rico, with a boiling bite, is nuts. Right? In the heavyweight division? Hold on, it's nuts. [46:32] Sure. He would wear a boiling bite that wasn't boiled. Oh, geez. Straight out of the packaging. That's the way people are, though. That's wild to me. Boiling bites are nuts. Well, it's also nuts. We talk about this on the USC broadcast all the time, but I think it's nuts that you're still allowed to wear a Thai steel cup. [46:51] I think it's fucking crazy. I think it's crazy. I would wear. I would, too. Yeah. That's all I ever wore. I can't wrap my head around how fighters don't wear them. 100%. I agree with you 100%. However, it should be illegal. It's fucking crazy. You have a piece of metal over your dick. You have actual iron over your cock, and if a guy kicks it with his toe, it's going to shatter. I've always wondered the north-south position. You just start humping their head, right? Oh, dude. Just giving them the business. There was one that did that. Do you remember Mia Renovati? Do you remember that guy, Boss Ruttenstein? Yeah. [47:21] He mounted me once, and he almost made me tap by just digging his dick into my sternum. This is so rude. In Grapevine, man, I'm like, bro, you're fucking killing me with this. It was horrible. Shoney Carter. Oh, Shoney Carter just wore an oversized coat. Also awesome for arm bars, too. That's how Frank Mir broke Tim Sylvia's arm. Oh, yeah. It was off of that metal cup. That completely makes sense. Yeah.

[47:47] But I think it would have broken it if it was just as nuts. Well, as strong as Frank could be. As strong as he was is how good his arm was in that position. That was a crazy situation. Oh, yes, it was. That was crazy because I don't think the people in the audience had any idea of what had happened. If you go back to that, because Herb Dean was a referee, and Herb did a great job. But I was actually in the corner of Tim Sylvia where I was sitting, and I had Jeremy Horn and Matt Hughes and Pat Militich in his corner. [48:17] I had the same view that they had. And what you saw was Tim Sylvia, but you saw his elbow... [48:23] Out. [48:24] from that arm bar, away from the hip. And all of a sudden Herb's stopping it. And they are going crazy. They're going, "What are you doing?" And they're calling him every name in the book. And I go right inside the octagon and I go, "Herb, what did you have?" And he goes, "John, his arm broke." I go, "His arm broke?" And he goes, "I heard it and I saw it." Yeah, you can see the vibration. And he goes, "His arm broke." Right? And so at the time, the [48:54] The person who was in charge of the medical staff for the Nevada State Athletic Commission, since it was in Nevada, they're looking at Tim, and Tim is like going, you know. But you saw Tim slowly stop using that one arm. It started going down to the side as reality started setting in and the pain started coming. But they basically said, there's nothing wrong with his arm. [49:13] Right? I swear to you. Herb's greatest response I've ever heard. He goes, X-ray that motherfucker. Because Herb never cusses, right? He goes, X-ray that motherfucker. It's broken, right? And sure enough, straight across both bones. Well, we could see it in the replay. Oh, yeah. And you called it out. Because everybody was booing. I'm like, you got to watch this. Watch this. What's that? What's that right there? When I saw it the first time on TV, I thought I just shifted off of the cup. Because sometimes you'll see that. The bone will shift off.

[49:43] You can tell us. It had two distinct pops. It had like that highlight where something bends, like a piece of plastic. It looked horrible, man. Oh, my God. He's broken more arms. He broke Noguera's arm, that spiral fracture. Spiral fracture with the Kimura, yeah. He's nasty, man. It's funny because if you're around Frank and you're talking, he'll always say. Oh, here it is. Oh, God, I don't want to watch it again. Watch it. [50:11] There it comes. Right here. Pop. Pop. Oh, God. [50:18] Thank you. [50:20] And it's the forearm, too, which is, like, super unusual. Yeah. [50:24] And everyone's wondering, why'd you stop it? Why'd you stop it? Oh, dude. Herb was getting booed out of the arena there. I remember this. They were so mad. I remember that. And Tim was complaining. Oh, yeah. Like, come on, bro. Yeah. [50:34] Like, you know what just happened. He has to know what just happened. Oh, he knows? He's just such an animal. He wanted to fight with a broken arm, which, you know, literally, you might have to get it amputated if you did that. Oh. Like, who knows what kind of damage you would have after that. [50:48] You could lose your arm. Yeah, you literally could lose your arm. But you'll get people all the time. I mean, some of the commentators on some of the shows, oh, if he wants to fight, let him fight. It's like, shut up. Shut up. Okay? Shut up. You've got to protect the fighter from themselves. Exactly. This is not life and death. If you lose a fight, I know it sucks. But it just sucks, and it's not life and death. It's okay. Crazy situations like Carlos Olberg, who knocks out Yuri Prohoshka with a clearly blown out knee. Oh, yeah.

[51:18] went to the round, at the end of the round, they would have probably stopped the fight. Well, think about what Santos, right? He ended up fighting Jon Jones with two torn out ACLs and PCLs, right? That's Jon Jones! I mean, that gave him a good fight. He gave him a great fight. I think that was a split decision. Oh, it was. Which is nuts. That's nuts. Like, he could have won. We had, like, one more incompetent judge. [51:41] Now we're going to incompetent judges. Now we're going to have problems. Well, whoever was judging the Usyk [51:48] The fact that they didn't have Rico ahead is crazy. They just – I think when you've got a guy like Usyk, who's arguably the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time, he's definitely in the conversation. And then you have so much money involved in him being undefeated. And whether the referee's corrupt or not, they know. Whether the judges are corrupt or not, they know. And if they fuck things up for everybody, you know, there's like – there's some weird shenanigans that go on in boxing. [52:18] I know. [52:19] It was a Pacquiao fight against Tim Bradley. She was one of the ones that she scored a bunch of fights. I thought you were going to talk Canelo against Triple G. There was a Canelo one that she scored bad. Yeah. She scored a bunch of fights where you're like, what the fuck is this? And then you have to realize about betting props. [52:40] Yeah. Adelaide Bird. No, no, it's not Adelaide Bird, though. No. Adelaide Bird was the Canelo versus Triple G. Very nice lady. She's a sweet lady. Look, I'm going to give her props in this. First off, she doesn't do a whole lot of boxing, but she does do a lot of MMA, does a lot of the UFC still. That woman watches more fights.

[53:00] goes to more trainings, she puts in all the time that you could imagine to always try to get better. She is asking questions all the time. [53:09] If you're going to sit there and say, well, can she roll? No, she can't. But she knows. If you say, okay, what's this? She'll tell you. What's this? [53:19] She knows it. I'm sure she puts in that time. But, you know, you're always going to have the there certain fights no matter what. They're always going to be there. You know, as the judge, you always you're trying to do your best. Yeah, but there's this one lady where she was involved in quite a few like ridiculous ones. And the Tim Bradley, Manny Pacquiao one was a big one. And then they looked at some other ones and then she stepped away from it. The problem is, and I'm not accusing this lady or anybody of this, but I'm saying that some people have done this in the past, is that. [53:49] All you have to do is make it a split decision. All you have to do is be one shitty judge that even though it was clearly for this guy, you say it's for that guy, and someone's making a ton of loot. Yeah. Especially in this day and age with betting. 100%, man. The UFC has a real problem. Oh, yeah. There's a real problem with quite a few fights. The FBI has looked into quite a few fights. That's wild. There's one that they focused on in the beginning because they knew that there was some improper betting, but now they're focused on a bunch of other ones as well. Yeah. [54:19] it. [54:20] I'm going to say this about the judgment. To think that you can get away with it, John, to think that you're going to be able to get away with it, it's just fucking stupid. You're an idiot. As the fighter, you're a fool. But if you... [54:30] If you were around the judging, especially in the UFC, because it's mainly a lot of the same guys, these guys are on...

[54:39] text links, they are consistently... Joe, every UFC fight, my phone blows up. It blows up with fighters. It blows up from other officials. Asking, what about that? What did you see? What do you think? And it's because, look, there is at times... [54:57] We get media and we get people talking about our fights that call robberies when there's no robbery. It's a close fight. And your guy, you wanted your guy to win and he lost. Hello, did not win. Fucking robbery. I pointed it out to him. I had him sit one time. Hey, sit where the judge sits. Because you get one view. You, as the commentator, you get that beautiful monitor that's in front of you. There's times when you're watching... [55:24] the fight live, and there's times when you're watching the monitor. [55:28] the angles change. As the judge, [55:30] Now they put the monitor there for the judges, and the UFC puts a great monitor there for them. But we didn't always have that. Right. And you didn't always... Many times you had the worst seat in the house to be able to judge a fight. Especially if there's a post in front of you. Yeah. And it's so different than what people think. And it's... [55:48] When you are the one that's putting your name on that scorecard, [55:52] You're signing it, and you know this counts. It's everything. It is everything to you to be right. You want to be right. [56:01] But many times what you're seeing, and that's why they're at the three different points, and that's why people get into this, whoa, it was a split decision. [56:09] Split decision is not always bad. Do you think there would be a benefit in having five judges instead of three? No. No? I've worked with it. I've done it too many times. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't? It doesn't change anything. I'm just being honest. If it did, I would say, yeah, we should do it. But if you have two bad judges and three good ones, the right guy wins. Why do you have two bad judges? Why?

[56:26] That's the question. That is the question. But when you're on the road, let's be honest, when we're on the road, let's not even name a state. [56:34] But we show up and we have to use these regular local guys. There have been issues. I'm not saying there haven't. Right? I'm not saying there haven't. There are bad judges, unfortunately. Yes, absolutely. I love cops. There's bad cops. There are. I love dentists. There's some bad dentists. There's some fucking people that do surgeries that don't have to do them. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. It's like it doesn't – it's not saying that the people that do it and do a great job shouldn't be supported and praised, and they definitely should. But it's also – it's like it would benefit, I think, everybody to have a few more opinions. Like I like verdict. [57:04] MMA's app. I bumped them up a bunch of times. I think they're accurate like 99% of the time. [57:10] I looked at the verdict score. I'm like, most of the time, out of 100 fights, most of the time I agree with the verdict score. There's many times, though, you can take a look. Look at this. When I started teaching the command course and everything, people – oh, you've got to teach stuff. I'm teaching people to take my job. [57:26] Right. But in the end, I'll need a lot of referees, luckily. They need a lot of judges. But they also need a lot of referees for the big ones where you can't fuck this up. You know what I mean? Yeah. It is. It's important. But it's not the job that people think it is. It is not as easy as people think it is. Oh, it's definitely not easy. And it's definitely... It's the hardest job next to being a fighter. Yeah. [57:49] I think it's fighters number one, referees number two. Yes and no. And you're right. As far as fighting is much more difficult as far as, you know, what it does to your body and what you have to put out into it and all that. Way more difficult. Also, the consequences of fucking it up. Boom. I don't have the consequences. If I make a bad call as a commentator, it's like, oh, Joe's an idiot. Okay. That doesn't mean anything. Like nobody loses money.

[58:12] Like, somebody could lose half their fucking purse, which I hate, by the way. Yeah. I don't like the whole win bonus. Everyone's trying to win. I hate it. Can't stand it. Can't stand it. You should get paid. You're a prize fighter. That's right. You should get paid to compete. This is the number. Whether it's $200,000 or $200,000, it shouldn't be dependent upon judges' decisions. It should be dependent upon you showed up, you fought your fucking ass off, you're trying to win. If you win, you're going to make more money. No one's trying to lose. No one's trying to lose. [58:36] Right? So it's like, what are we doing? [58:38] This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. Listen up. Blue Chew just dropped something wild. They're calling it Blue Chew Gold. And honestly, the name fits. The stuff is setting a whole new standard for performance in the bedroom. It's not your typical blue pill. It combines two ingredients for blood flow with two for mental arousal and connection. It's not just physical, it's the [59:08] Not just about being able to perform. It's about actually wanting to. And I've got a special deal for you listeners. Right now, when you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third free with the promo code ROGAN. You'll also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. I'm okay with the win bonus, but it's got to be more skewed towards the show money. [59:38] number of $100,000. 80-20? 80-20, right? And then you give me another bonus for a finishing bonus. If I give a knockout, you give me another 20 or 50. Well, they're doing that now. The UFC's doing finishing bonuses. Yeah, exactly. But I just don't like win bonuses. I think you know, the fact that there have been bad decisions, and guys have lost half their fucking purse when they need it. You got robbed. That's when you really got robbed. Not just a decision, but you got robbed financially, which is fucking crazy to me. I think fighters should get... I don't think they fight harder.

[1:00:06] I don't think anybody fights harder. They want to win. They want to win. That's it. No one's fighting harder to get a bonus. [1:00:12] It's just something sitting out there. And if they are, they probably shouldn't be fighting in the UFC anyway. Because they're not at an elite, world-class level if they're fighting harder for a bonus. If you're in the top 15, you're not going to fight harder because you're getting paid more. You've worked your way there to get there. Your pride is too involved. Your ego is involved. You're too fucking good. Yeah. You want to show everyone you're the best. I've always said, look, if you ask a fighter before the fight, hey, how much are you going to win for this? If they're going to get a 40-40, if they're going to get a 50-50, they're going to say $100,000. They've already mentally spent that money. [1:00:42] And trust me, it's always... It's true. They've got that win bonus in there. 100% true. Kind of impulsive. Fighters aren't the best at saving cash. I know. [1:00:53] You know who's good at saving money, though, is Strickland. You would think he'd be the most reckless guy? No. Very smart. Very smart with his money. Yeah. Most of these guys are buying jeans and shirts and glasses. No, no. This dude's buying Wranglers and boots. He wears the same thing every day. White beater tank tops. [1:01:12] He doesn't care. But he saves his money, man. He's got a lot of money saved up. Good for him. Learning how to be frugal is very important, especially if you're an athlete. Any type of athlete. It doesn't matter. Especially if you're an athlete like Strickland who still rides a motorcycle. That's psychopath. I still ride a motorcycle. He still? Oh, yeah. You didn't learn anything from Frank Mir when he broke his femur? I'm surprised fighters. Frank Mir breaking his femur is what kept me from getting a motorcycle license. That was the last one. Really? Yeah. Two friends crashed. One friend wiped out and fucked up his shoulder. And then Frank Mir got T-boned.

[1:01:42] It all comes down to the old saying, there's two types of motorcycle riders. [1:01:46] Ones that have been down and ones that are going down. Yeah. And that's just the truth. That's the problem. I felt like I'm hurting myself so many days a week just doing jujitsu. Like, doing that on top of that, it's like, I don't want to risk. No. Yeah. Especially if you haven't been doing it. Because there's ways to ride. And you don't ride. Like, I can watch people on the road and I go, that dude doesn't know how to ride. Scary. And it's like, they're the ones that are going. That's what's scary. You get a license, figure out how to ride it, buy a bike, and you fucking. [1:02:16] you could go to a car dealership right now and pick up a Corvette ZR1. You got a 1,000-horsepower car. Yeah. Right on, like – [1:02:23] Who knows if you know how to really drive that thing? Who says that you're prepared to drive that thing? That's a fighter jet on wheels. This is fucking insane. And you just give it to some kid? But it's awesome. Yeah. Your parents are rich, so you have a fucking fighter jet on wheels? Like, this is nuts. But you know what you're talking about, Sean Strickland, with... [1:02:39] How many cars do you need? [1:02:40] I tell fighters all the time, how many cars do you need? Dude, I've had arguments with Rampage because Rampage has got 8 million cars. And I go, dude, how many cars can you put your ass in at one time? And it's like you're blowing through money that you can't get back. You can't get back. One of the things about cars, depending on what kind of cars you have, some cars are... Oh, if you're going to do an investment, that's fine. Muscle cars, shit like that, they're always worth money. I think if you're a fighter, you need to take a page out of Forrest Griffin's book, right? [1:03:10] He drove that thing into the ground.

[1:03:13] Door handles were off. He had to roll the window down to open the door from the outside. He's such a character. But, I mean, that's how you have to live. If you're going to be a professional athlete, a professional fighter, that's how you have to live, especially early in your career. You don't know how long it's going to last. Yeah, also, there's something to be said for the comforts of nice things and luxuries kind of slowing you down a little bit. Not everybody. It doesn't seem to do it to Arvin Sarukian. No. That fucking dude. Come on. [1:03:40] Whole rule book. Rich kid. Fights like a demon. Built like a Greek god. He is such a stud, man. Constantly competing in wrestling. Doing everything. He's wrestling this weekend. Here at Roth Wrestling in Arlington. Animal. Yeah. When I saw him last year, I said, just keep doing what you're doing, dude. Just killing it. Just keep doing what you're doing. I think the best thing that could happen to him is not getting a title fight. That guy's built. No. I mean, he's capitalized on the bad situation that he put himself in. But it was also the headbutt with Dan Hooker. Absolutely. [1:04:10] Well, because as a promoter, right, you could have cost me all this money if he gets cut. Yeah, if he gets cut. They pull the fight. That's right. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? Come on, knucklehead. Yeah, stop. But I love watching him fight. What he's been doing with RAF, what he's been doing with his Nina drama stuff and all that stuff. [1:04:28] Hey, keep going. Keep going. People are talking about you. He's killing it. And he is the most interesting contender for Elio Toporia. Absolutely. Oh yeah. 100%. Other than Justin, which is going to be wild. But I think him, the skills that he has, the wrestling that he has, and the size, he's a lot bigger than Elio. You know, I asked DC and Dustin both yesterday on my show, why do you think people were overlooking Justin?

[1:04:56] That's a good question. I mean – [1:04:58] When I look at Gaethje, I'm like, he's got all the tools and the weapons. Ilya Teporia's heavy on the lead leg. Justin Gaethje's got a heavy leg kick. He's got a great uppercut. He's fighting the shorter fighter in Ilya Teporia. He's a bigger guy. He's a way bigger guy. He's not making 145 ever. No. He's a much bigger guy. He's a really good wrestler, and he's a nasty striker. And he's also kind of a fucking savage. No, he's not kind of. Yeah, I mean, like a real savage, not like pretending. [1:05:28] himself at Michael Johnson. And he did the same thing with Patty Pimblitt. The Patty Pimblitt fight, he could have fought that fight a lot cleaner. And he just said, fuck you, I'm just going to walk you down and just blast you every chance I get and break you up. And that's what he did. And he's a fucking scary dude, man. Justin's a scary dude. When he's on, and this is the last dance, right? So you know that he's going to be hyper focused for this fight. [1:05:51] I just can't see why people are overlooking him. They just look at him like, oh, he doesn't have a chance. Can he get knocked out? I think they're taken away from what... This is because Ilya is so good. Because Ilya has done it to... [1:06:00] Everybody. All these guys that are also really good. You've got three all-time greats. Yes, in a row. In a row. Three in a row. But let me... Max Holloway, Alexander Volkanovsky, and fucking Dubronx, fucking Charles Oliveira. That's crazy. Crazy. Three KOs. Yes. I don't hold it against him, but also, is it kind of somewhere... Is there an asterisk next to it a little bit? Because Volkanovsky coming off the head kick knockout loss. Max Holloway cutting from 55 to 45 after putting all the weight on, then getting knocked out.

[1:06:30] The only one I would say no is Charles, because he goes up, fights Charles. Charles, you know. Charles, no. Max Holloway, yes, because he cut the weight, but that was his decision. That's right. And no one should have let Volkanovsky take that fight. [1:06:42] You got head kicked four months ago into a coma. There's no fucking chance you should be taking a fight with the scariest puncher in the division. Is that a coach's corner family decision? It's him. He's an animal. He is an animal. He's a fucking animal. He thinks he can do it. Yeah, but see, that's when you have to have... [1:06:58] the people maybe in your corner, in your family are saying, hey. I think it's honestly in your family. I think you need someone who loves you. Someone who is just absolutely, totally honest saying, hey. [1:07:10] You can't do this this fast. I'm not saying you can't do it. But you have to do these things to be able to make it to where you have a – [1:07:19] ability to take a shot like you used to because it's diminished at this moment. Not just that. You have to take into consideration that he gets knocked out and then he goes right into camp. [1:07:28] Okay, so you're not going to rest your brain. No. You're just not. Even if you're just wrestling, you're not resting your brain. You can't. Anytime your body temperature rises, you're damaging your brain, especially if you haven't let it recover yet. And there's no way he let it recover. I mean, he got shinned, shinned to the dome by one of the biggest guys that ever fought at 55. Islam's huge for 55. Six foot tall. And he fucking takes the fight on 11 days notice with no camp. [1:07:58] Drinking Fosters?

[1:08:09] He's an all-time great. And when you go back and look at his fights with Max, he was the first guy to figure out Max. And then you look at what he did cleaning out the division. I mean, my God, I would have loved to see a fair shake. I would have never advised him to take that fight with Islam on 11 days notice. I don't care what the fucking UFC says. No. Go Jon Jones. Go Jon Jones. [1:08:29] What does Jon Jones do? Jon Jones had an opportunity to fight Chael Sonnen with very little notice. That's right. He was already in shape. Dan Henderson fight. He's like, nope, won't fight him. Not going to fight him unless I have a full camp preparing just for him. I'm not giving anybody any fucking chances. Period. See ya. Bye. I'm the champ. And if Volkanovski had that mindset, he would have never fought in Islam unless he went through a full camp again because he almost beat him the first time. It was a really close fight the first time. The second fight he comes in, he's a little soft. He's not in shape. [1:08:59] right. Also the difference in the weight cut for Islam. Yes. Islam was on 30 some hours compared to... Right. He's on Australia time the first time. The second time he's like fully rehydrated. Much more time to recover. Much more dangerous. I think it was more of the expectation that Volk thought I'll just do the same thing I did in the first fight. Of course, because he's an animal. That's where you need your brother. You need someone to go, dude, I love you. You're an animal. You're one of the greatest of all time. But the brain is the brain. There's just certain... You don't want [1:09:29] to fight with a broken hand, right? Okay. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean your head's not damaged. Your head's damaged. That's the difference, though, is exactly what you're saying. [1:09:38] The brain doesn't hurt. Right. It doesn't have nerve endings. And so you can't sit there and say, oh, man, I've got this problem until...

[1:09:46] You end up concussed until now all of a sudden the headaches are occurring and the bright lights start to bother you. And all these things start to add up. And you're starting to get mad about things that you can't understand. Why am I getting mad right now? [1:09:57] at. [1:09:58] Those are the telltale signs of, hey, I need to step away for a while. Do you remember when Travis Luder fought... [1:10:05] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Who was it? Eastman. Eastman. Marvin Eastman. Marvin Eastman. And he caught Marvin Eastman with a punch. It was just a regular punch. Just nothing. Eastman went down. And then we found out later, oh, he got KO'd really bad, I think by Tito. Yep. In training. Yep. [1:10:22] And it's like, that's it. He'd been killed twice. [1:10:26] Twice in training. Oh, God. These guys are crazy. You look and you go, and that's why he went out the way he did. 100%. Because it was weird. Off of something he never would have been hurt by. It was weird. It was weird. It was like a straight left. The condom at the end of the punch. End of the punch. Hardly moved him. Hardly moved him. Just fell back. Yeah, because his brain was damaged. You've got to give your time a full time to recover. 45 days. 100%. [1:10:52] things like that to help your brain recover. When Juan Manuel Marquez knocked out Pacquiao, Freddie Roach said, you're not doing anything for a year. [1:10:59] That's it. One year. And he got his chin back. Yeah. He took that year off and he came back, actually recovered. But Freddie, being a longtime boxer himself and being around the game and seeing guys getting knocked out and seeing guys jumping back in too quick, he knew. Freddie being one himself. Yes. Look, people don't realize Freddie was actually a good boxer. He had a good amateur record. He was doing well in the pros. Do you remember who his trainer was?

[1:11:26] His trainer was Eddie Futch. [1:11:27] Eddie Futch, who was the second trainer for Joe Frazier after Yance Durham died, and Joe Frazier, he was there for the thrill in Manila with Ali and stuff like that. And Eddie Futch told... [1:11:41] Freddie Roach, son, you're taking too many shots. You're getting hit with too many good ones. You're not responding the same way. You're done. [1:11:48] You've got to stop. And Freddie Roach got rid of it. [1:11:51] Eddie Futch, and continued to fight as a professional and just kept getting knocked out. And that was the end of his career. And then he became the trainer. And, you know, you can take a look at a lot of the issues that he has. But as much as you're looking at... [1:12:04] you know, [1:12:05] You're looking at that with Freddie. Take a look at his brother, Pepper, who took a lot less, is worse than Freddie. I mean, Pepper's gone now, but I mean... [1:12:15] headshots and trauma to the brain, especially when you don't give it the opportunity to, [1:12:21] to rest and heal, it will absolutely take and burn your career. No doubt. No doubt. And there's no way to really tell. Right. [1:12:31] There's so many guys that are damaged and we don't know because you meet them backstage like, hey, how you doing? Everything's great. But meanwhile, it's not great. These guys are struggling. They don't remember what you just said. Exactly. And then they're talking to people. They repeat things over and over and over again. And you can watch. [1:12:47] I hate to say it. There was a fighter fought in the UFC, fought in bare-knuckle boxing now. He's now training guys. And it's Joey Beltran. [1:12:56] I had a decent career Heavy puncher

[1:12:59] took a lot of damage and I'm just watching Joey Beltran walk off of stairs and having to go one step at a time with each foot and you look and you go damn you know and you know hey he's been altered you know he's a great guy but it's like [1:13:16] That's what... [1:13:17] All of this does in the end. No doubt. You've got to understand that, you know, I always, I try to tell fighters, look, you're a Ferrari, you know, you want to be a Lamborghini, you're a Lamborghini. But first off, it's like, you know, the whole John Jones thing is, you know, be careful of what you put in its gas tank. Okay. Same with, you know, other guys. You know, I don't mean to pick out on John, but, you know, he's told the story of what he was doing. [1:13:47] so many times before [1:13:49] It's a piece of junk. Right. And it's hard to get that through that this is not going to last forever and I'm not going to be the same forever. Yeah. They just don't see it until all of a sudden it's there. Well, that's why it's a real bummer when you see coaches that you know love the fighters and they haven't stepped in. [1:14:04] They haven't done anything. [1:14:06] Keeping training these guys because they'll lose them. [1:14:09] Yeah. [1:14:10] Exactly. And that's what's horrible. It's horrible that there has to be the kind of relationship where you – [1:14:17] get to a fork in the road and you go, this is what this is. It doesn't mean that your life is over. No, it's the start of your next life. It's just you can't identify yourself. Well, Josh, you can speak to this because you fought at the highest level for a long fucking time.

[1:14:31] and you stepped away healthy. [1:14:33] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more. [1:15:03] like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, they'll alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Even better, alerts are automatically activated the moment you become a LifeLock member. No extra work on your part. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Don't wait. Join LifeLock now. Visit LifeLock.com slash J-R-E and save up to 30% your first year. [1:15:33] slash J-R-E for 30% off terms apply. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability, but even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at

[1:16:03] ZipRecruiter connects you with qualified candidates instantly, and their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list, so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. [1:16:33] That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. [1:16:38] Yeah, and I had this conversation with Dustin yesterday. I just said, hey, I feel like you could still do it. You're right there. You're one fight away from fighting for another title again. And he's like, it was just the time. [1:16:49] And I completely respect that. I said, because he's having time now with his two kids, his wife. He's enjoying his moment. He just got done lifting. He was looking swole. And I was like, it's good to see you. He came on the show. He was all sweaty a little bit. Like... [1:17:03] You know, he's enjoying this next chapter of his life. I like when guys go out like Khabib. Oh, absolutely. They offer him a bunch of money. He's like, no, good, did it, done, bye. And I hate when people try to rag him on it. It drives me crazy. They sit there and go, oh, yeah, but you know, you could have done this. You could have done that. Fools. He gives zero fucks. It doesn't matter. He doesn't care. He doesn't look at it. Look at what he did. That's all you need to know. [1:17:28] Look, he dominated people that nobody dominated. Oh, yeah. And he did it in a crazy way. Speaking of Barboza, I remember that fight where Barboza had that thousand-yard stare. So do I. In the first round. He was like, oh, my God, this is never going to go my way. No, it's not. It wasn't going to. Hey. I actually looked something up the other day. Khabib is the only guy who's never bled inside the UFC octagon. That's crazy. He's the only fighter to never bleed inside the octagon. That's crazy. What have I told you? That's wild. He's the most dominant fighter inside.

[1:17:58] John Jones being considered the greatest. John Jones is the greatest as far as you're going to say... [1:18:03] Who's done it better as far as all the championship fights and all of that stuff? Jon Jones is the guy. The most dominant fighter I ever stepped into that cage with was Khabib. Look at this. Khabib never visibly bled, was severely bruised, or was knocked down during his professional MMA career. Who's the only person you ever saw hurt him? [1:18:23] Connor. [1:18:24] Nope. No. No. Well, Gleason Tebow hurt me a little bit. You say Michael Johnson. Michael Johnson. There was that talk. Michael Johnson had one where he gave a little bit of a... That's right. I was doing that fight. That's right. Michael Johnson. And I was like, oh. Yeah, that's right. Michael Johnson caught up. He sucked it right back up. I said, I go, Habib, I go, are you hurt? He's like, brother, come on. You know I'm hurting. [1:18:43] It was the same. It was so great. You talked about Michael Johnson against Gaethje. And after that fight, because I did that fight, and I told Justin, hey, congratulations. [1:18:54] You got hurt. You went through it. He goes, I never got hurt. I go, go watch the video. I never got hurt. I was like, I never got hurt. Oh, yeah, you got hurt. Those guys went to war. Oh, man. [1:19:03] The crazy thing was when Khabib was on top of Michael Johnson and he was saying, come on, brother, you know I deserve a title shot. He was saying, I don't want to do this to you. I don't want to. And then when he almost, when he got him in the Kimura, I was like, please tap. Oh, absolutely. You're saying please tap? Yeah. What do you think I'm saying? I think the only reason why I didn't break is Khabib is probably being kind. [1:19:23] Yeah. Like he's talking to them. Oh, yeah. The whole time. The entire fight. You have to give up. He's saying you have to give up. Come on, bro. You know I need to fight for title.

[1:19:32] - I'm sorry. [1:19:34] It's my destiny. I have to fight for the title. Yeah, I need to fight for the title. You know this. I deserve this. You agree? He's like, you agree? He's saying this is why he's beating his ass. You agree? Johnson's like, huh? I mean, he was just a motherfucker, dude. Oh, yeah. So everybody agrees. Everybody agrees. As he's beating his ass, he's saying, see, everybody agrees. [1:19:52] Well, how about when he was on top of Conor and he said, let's talk now? Yes. He was punching me in the face. Come on, let's talk. Let's talk now. Let's talk now. I loved it. [1:19:58] He was a monster, dude. Khabib was just so relentless in that style. But it's everything to do with his lifestyle. And this is where you get into, you know, you've seen it too many times, champions. And there's been great champions. But when you become the champion, everything in your life changes. The things that come your way change. You know, you get offered things that you didn't get offered in the same way before. You get all these opportunities. [1:20:28] plane going to a location to do something. Sometimes it's for the promotion that you're working for. Sometimes it's for the UFC or whatever promotion there is because they're asking you. So you're missing that day of training. And then you're getting back on the plane. You're coming back the next day. And that's another day that you're missing. [1:20:44] He never missed training. [1:20:46] He never changed his lifestyle. He did everything the same. And that's why he had the results he got. Well, for a super successful guy, he's still so humble. [1:20:56] He's so normal to talk to. He's so balanced. And it's that discipline that he has. The discipline, his religious beliefs. He's just so rock solid. The thing about him is that he tries to make sure he puts the guys that helped get him there, tries to help them get elevated as well.

[1:21:17] But kind of what I'm trying to say is that how you've done with your guys, with your group of comics and friends, you guys all lift each other up. He does the same thing with the group of friends that he has. So not just like myself and D.C. and Islam and those guys. I mean, like when they go to travel for events, he takes care of the house. He makes sure that it's all organized, makes sure that there's enough room for everyone. There's food. Obviously, all the other guys chip in, but it's like he's the one that's kind of organized and everything. He's the leader of that team. [1:21:47] Thank you. [1:21:47] Yeah, no, he's a real leader. He's a real leader. And now that he's coaching, I mean, you imagine you're a kid and you need motivation. You're literally being coached by one of the greatest combat sports athletes to ever walk on God's earth. And one that did it right the entire time. The entire time. And it is all about discipline and hard work. Like, you couldn't pick a better camp, especially if you're a grappling-based guy. [1:22:11] You know, like, send him to Dagestan two, three years ago. [1:22:15] That's the greatest meme of all time. I think what separates Islam and Habib and that whole group is that there's never a moment where they're not training. Like, I was in Chicago at one of the events for Bellator. [1:22:26] We were there, and I was headed down to the bar after the event. They were headed to the gym, passing me in the elevator. They said, come up and talk to me. So I was up there for an hour just chatting with them while they're riding bikes, lifting weights, getting their workout in, and everyone else is down at the bar drinking. Wow. And so it doesn't matter. They don't even look at it. They don't think about it. They just go right to the gym. They get their sweat on. They're up there for two hours. It's not like this intensity for 25 minutes. Right. They're just working. Yeah. They're never letting themselves get out of shape ever.

[1:22:56] when they were training out of AK in the mornings, you'd see them at the track in the mornings. They would just jog, but then there was little stations where you do sit-ups and push-ups. They would do those, and they would do it for two, three miles, and they'd come to the gym at noon, and they'd do their workouts, sometimes hard, sometimes not, but they were always training, always working, and that's what separates them. They're not out at the club until two, three in the morning, then trying to recover the next day. They're not drinking. They're not smoking. They're not doing... The no drinking is huge. Huge. Huge. If there's one thing that fucks fighters up more than anything, it's partying. Oh, yeah. [1:23:26] I guess Coke, but I don't have a lot of experience with guys that I knew that were doing Coke, but I have a lot of experience with guys that were drinkers. And you would see them in the morning. They would go out Saturday night. Sunday, they'd be fucked up. They show up Monday to train, and they just looked like shit because they had been partying too hard just two days ago. And you don't think that that's going to make a big difference. But if you're getting drunk on Saturday night, that's days before you're back to baseline. Days. That's right. And you can get away with it when you're 23. Yeah. [1:23:56] But are you? Because you're probably not as good as you would have been. And then maybe you're going to get hit with some shots that you wouldn't have got hit with. Or you're going to get tapped when you wouldn't have got tapped. And you take a look. That's the big difference. If you go back and look at Habib's career. Go back and look at his first fight in the UFC and look at how bad. And I'm serious. How bad his stand-up was. Oh, yeah. It wasn't the best. Oh, no. It was probably the worst. Okay. I don't think it was the worst. It was bad. He did a lot of crazy shit. Yeah. But take a look at it. Those were his set-ups.

[1:24:26] at the end. Oh, yeah. It was tight. He always was improving. Oh, he was dangerous. Remember, he dropped Conor. He improved throughout. He cracked Conor, you know, with a big right hand, which was like, everybody was like, holy shit. That was a shocker. I had several conversations with Shab about that, because I went down and did his show a couple times in L.A. before that fight, and I said, look, stylistically, Conor's the better striker. I go, but the intimidation of the takedown and the threat of the takedown for Conor is going to make him hesitant. I said, don't be surprised if [1:24:56] on the feet. That's a giant factor. The fear of the takedown. The bad about Kevin Randleman when he fought Krokop, when he knocked him out, that was what it was. The fear of the takedown. The thinking. The thought process of, I can't let him. Well, you get it. If Kevin Randleman and Krokop fought a straight kickboxing match with no takedowns, Jesus Christ. It's a walk. You don't want to watch it. It'd be terrible to watch. [1:25:18] That threat of the takedown is this factor that keeps you from being comfortable. It keeps you from finding your flow state. [1:25:23] That little hesitation opens up so many opportunities to catch him. Yeah, it's big. It's so big. You see it in fights all the time when a guy just has this extra element. So that's why it's so impressive when you see a guy like Pereira where there's no thread to take down. Yeah. There's no thread. It's not happening. He's not even thinking about taking down. He's just going to fuck you up. And now it's up to you to deal with that. [1:25:46] We just don't have the level of wrestlers these days in the 205 and the heavyweight division to compete with them in the wrestling area. That's where you have someone like... [1:25:55] Steveson coming in. Gable coming in in the heavyweight division. Curtis Blades can wrestle. Now Josh Hokett. Josh Hokett's the real deal.

[1:26:05] He's a good athlete. He's a good all-around athlete. He's a character. You can go with a shtick. Hey, [1:26:11] Hey, you got his shit, it's great. Exactly. But also, he put up. He put up. Absolutely. He put up in that Curtis Blades fight. Hello, that fight, as a heavyweight fight, was awesome. Awesome. Awesome to watch. Terrible for your dome, though. Oh, yes. And that's the crazy thing, that he's going to fight Derek Lewis, who's the biggest knockout puncher in the history of the fucking heavyweight division. More knockouts than anyone. And he's going to fight him, what, how many weeks? Seven weeks? Yeah, seven weeks. Seven weeks? Yep. Seven fucking weeks? Seven fucking weeks. After a war? Hello. You see Curtis Blades' fists? They're like this. [1:26:41] they're gigantic he's a giant man and he hit him a bunch of times big shots and what look i get i gotta give it up for curtis plays what a fight he put on because he took some damage he delivered some big shots with mad heart mad mad heart crazy crazy heart because he just did not want to lose that shit talking dude that's the funny thing is like okay it will drop the the act when you talk [1:27:11] After the fight, I said, dude, that was a fucking amazing fight. He goes, I talk so much shit. [1:27:16] He goes, I talk so much shit. [1:27:21] And then he went and did it again. Fuck it. Little Iliad Tabori is out there trying to pick fights with him, too. Great. Well, he just talks shit about so many people. He's just trying to get people upset and talk about it. He's just pushing buttons. Listen, that's the Conor McGregor game plan. I mean, Conor did it the best. Chael did it.

[1:27:41] That was the first, really, to do it in MMA. Then Conor took it to another level. But they kind of stayed in their lane. Like, this is my weight class. This dude doesn't care if you're 135, 145. He talks a ton of shit. He just wants controversy. He's basically like one of them kick streamers. He's just trying to talk shit as much as possible. Look what he's done, though, man. He can fight himself. He can fight. [1:28:06] For a division that the UFC has, man, they need these people. I think Gable's the man. That's what I think. That's your nightmare. That's Mike Tyson when he was 20. You know what I mean? He's still great. He's got some work to do. But I'm glad they signed him early, you know, trying to develop him hopefully a little bit. Give him two or three more fights inside the UFC. The problem is the heavyweight division in the UFC is so shallow that you could see Gable fighting for a title within a year or two. [1:28:31] Three fights. Three fights. Yeah. Could be. Yeah. Could be. He's going to have to learn a lot, though, in that process. 100%. He's got John in his corner. Yeah. He's a giant. You've got to give him credit, though. He has shown that, you know, first off, he's super fast. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But he's also got a chin. He got kicked. [1:28:47] up into the head-neck area. His last fight. He ate that sucker. Mm-hmm. You know, and... [1:28:51] continued on and you go, well, he's a tank. Don't let that happen again. Don't let it happen a lot. But man, you've shown, hey, he didn't let it affect him. [1:28:59] He didn't back off. Well, he's an Olympic gold medalist. I mean, he's a winner. He is a small heavyweight, though, like that hybrid style heavyweight. Yeah, but that's the best. It is. Well, he's 250. He's just not tall, but he's wide as fuck. His legs and ass are huge. How about when he had that dirty boxing fight and then leapt over the top rope?

[1:29:18] literally that's the whole thing look like it was a box of tissues on the ground the best one was when he had the first one and he hits the guy [1:29:25] The guy's out going down, and he's taking him down. He shoots a double while the guy's out of cold. That's how fast he is. Yeah, he's the most impressive of the prospects. But, you know, hopefully this is going to excite the – like when you have a – like every division goes through these peaks and valleys. And when you have a lull, hopefully that's when people come in and they fill that void. And with Francis out of the UFC, and it looks like forever. Which is a shame. It's a shame. I don't – I tried to negotiate that. [1:29:55] back together. I tried to have a sit down. Dana was not interested. He doesn't want to have anything to do with him. It's about interpersonal relationships, interpersonal exchanges that they had that I'm not, I don't know what happened. Exactly. I just know what Dana told me. And I believe him. So it's like, [1:30:11] You have the best heavyweight in the world, and he can't fight in the UFC, which is to me crazy. [1:30:16] I mean, let's do Molly together. Let's work this out. Let's fucking work this out, bro. We can do anything, right? I mean, this is why I'm not a promoter and it's why I'm not a businessman. But if I was – I would go to dinner with him. Come on, man. I'm sure we could let our differences be aside. Like, he's not a bad guy. It's just, you know, sometimes people get upset. They say things like smooth it out. My experiences with Francis have always been super positive. I enjoy talking to him. [1:30:46] Francis has been nothing but kind to me and everybody I've introduced him to and stuff. He's always the best. He's the scariest fucking heavyweight on planet Earth. Dude, he's huge. He's huge. I was at an awards thing, and Misha Tate and Rashad Evans and I and my wife were taking a picture, and all of a sudden, there's shadow comes over the top of us, and it's Francis with his arms out like, hey, right? It's like, what the hell?

[1:31:16] There were many fights where he was like 270, 275 He would drop a little bit of weight Which is also stupid Why is there a 265 pound weight limit For the heavyweight division? [1:31:29] Isn't that nuts? Yeah, I know why. Because you get those really big guys. It was like Lorenzo. Lorenzo was looking at it saying, I don't want fat guys. [1:31:40] Really? That's what, you know, because you had... What about Roy? Big country. Everybody loved big country when he was in. But it was, at the time, in MMA... [1:31:49] You had no weight limits. Roy was lovable. To a point. Love Roy. No weight limits. And that whole thing was... [1:31:55] He looked and said, I don't want a bunch of fat guys. We've got to cut it off at a certain point because I'm not going to have super heavyweight. [1:32:01] They never did. Well, not having super heavyweight is fine, but merge it. [1:32:06] It's ridiculous If a guy is like Value F Remember Value F Oh yeah The Russian guy Was 7 feet tall Fought Holyfield Let him fight David Hay beat him Remember that one Oh that's right David Hay And David Hay is a small Heavyweight in comparison Oh yeah Holyfield beat him too right [1:32:23] Didn't Holyfield beat him? Holyfield didn't fight value up. I think they did. Did they? I think they did. Look that one up. I think they did. [1:32:30] I might be wrong. [1:32:31] I'm not sure if Vander fought him. David Hay beat him. I know that. [1:32:35] And I'd be wrong. [1:32:37] Oh, there they are. Yeah. Oh, that's him. Yeah. [1:32:41] 2008 [1:32:43] Crazy. And Evander Holyville was a cruiserweight. Remember when he fought Dwight Muhammad Kawi, who was 5'7"? Oh, yeah. Kawi was a 5'7 cruiserweight. He'd get underneath you and be like moving around. He was like, he was a nightmare to deal with. He was a mini Joe Frazier. Bro, he was a tank. And he would pull his trunks way up to here. Oh, you did. Right under his nipples. It was crazy. Oh, value of one. Highly disputed. That's what it is. Majority decision. That's where you get a fucking refereeing.

[1:33:13] corner. That's when, look at the age of Evander. [1:33:16] Yes. 46. Which is crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. It's crazy when you see these guys that are like, wow, Yoel Romero can do it. Okay, listen. No. [1:33:26] He is a distinct. I'm not from Earth. Okay, this is where this whole UFO thing comes in. Yeah, right. And here is the proof of, yes, there are aliens, and Yoel Romero is one of them. Yeah. It's wild. He is built differently than every other human being on the face of this planet. I told this story before. I don't know if you guys heard it, but this actually happened. [1:33:46] broken into his orbital. The UFC brings him to a doctor. The doctor says to him, [1:33:50] to the UFC, where did you get this guy? And they go, he's pretty awesome. He goes, no, no, no. I've never seen a human built like this before. They said his tendon in his eye were three times larger than a normal person's. They said the orbital bone is already healing. Like, this is crazy. I need no medicine. So then there's some questions. It's like, you know, listen, the Cubans are very connected to the Russians. We're very connected to science. It's wild. I mean, you've got to think. [1:34:20] be wrestling, bang, bang, bang when he's coming up, you could make a totally different kind of kid. Oh. I read a story about this guy. [1:34:29] Then his son... [1:34:30] started showing like androgenic effects very early on. They were freaked out. Like the kid was – like his dick was growing. He was getting hair. They're like, what the fuck is happening to this baby? And they realized that the dad had testosterone cream.

[1:34:44] So the dad was taking testosterone cream, and he's hugging the baby. And, you know, bare chest to bare chest. It's transferring. He's literally juicing up his fucking kid. Have you seen Andre Smyo? [1:34:57] Yes. Holy Jesus Christ. Jamie, pull up that guy. Who's this? Andres Maiev is a, he's a, he's kind of a hybrid. He's a bodybuilder, power lifter, strong man, arm wrestler. Yeah. He's 350 pounds. I mean, 20, 27 inch arms. His hands are so big. They look like catcher's mitts. Look at his hands. Have you heard, you know what he's taking? 2016 to 2026. Look at the difference. 2016, look at his hands. Yeah, look at his hands difference. [1:35:27] His hands are huge because he takes a thousand units of growth hormone a day. That's 10 vials. What? He does? Yes. He's going to die. Wow. [1:35:39] Whoa. You cannot take that much for it. Is that real? [1:35:41] That's insane. A thousand? Oh, my God. Look at the size of them. [1:35:46] That's so crazy. That dude does one-arm pull-ups at 350 pounds. That's nuts. I mean, he is absolutely... [1:35:55] And he's not and he has a regular job. He's 27 years old. Look at him. He looks like he's 50. Yeah, he looks at least 50. Doesn't he have a factory job? I think he has a regular job. So it's not even he's not even doing it for money. Oh, no. But it's crazy when you see him when he was young. Like, look at that. That's him. That's the same guy. I mean, that that looks like a regular athlete. He is a regular athlete there. [1:36:14] And then all of a sudden he becomes this fucking immense freak.

[1:36:18] He is. He must have done a lot of testosterone to lose all of his hair like that. He did everything. He's done everything there is. Whatever you got, give me it. There's a lot of those dudes. [1:36:27] This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments. [1:36:57] We'll be right back. [1:37:27] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [1:37:35] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required.

[1:37:57] active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit trimphiaradio.com. [1:38:28] Do you know about that guy, Tom Haviland? Oh, yeah, from Australia. Fuck. Dude, that... Six foot eight. That dude, you take a look at him. He is... He's unique in the fact he doesn't do the normal workouts and stuff. Right. He does basic... [1:38:41] Farm. [1:38:42] stuff he picks up you know things farmer walks with stuff that's ridiculously he does like a lot of picks up axles oh yeah weird shit dude but he's six foot eight and let's say 330 pounds more not trying to get to four he was trying to get to four so he's in the 390s he was like this is building up to 400 pounds but shredded yeah he is [1:39:03] And preposterously strong. Yeah. [1:39:06] Like farmers. He's always working out when you can't see him. Yeah, you see his back, and he's always wearing clothes, which is very odd. But there's photos of him without the clothes. And it's almost like he's building a masterpiece, and he wants to reveal it once he's done painting. [1:39:21] See if you can find some pictures of what he actually looks like. Because occasionally they show his body. He'll show his body. He always takes all the stuff from behind. Like that's him.

[1:39:29] Yeah. Fucking bro. Wow. Look at that. That's him right there. Look at that. That's fucking insane. Oh, he looks young. Yeah. [1:39:35] I don't think he's that old. He looks young. I think he's like maybe 30 or something. Damn. It's nuts. Yeah, he is. Gigantic, dude. 6'8", 385. What the fuck? What the fuck? Now, imagine if he wanted to fight MMA. And they're like, well, sir, you've got to lose 110 pounds. Fuck off. That's crazy. Fuck you. Okay, hold on. Hold on. Think about this. Look at that. You're the heavyweight that they want to put him against. Yes, there's a weight class. [1:40:05] should be chaos. 2.25 and then chaos. I agree. And let the freaks in. Let them Iceland dudes in. I mean, some of the most entertaining fights in Pride, right, were the freak fights. Yeah. Yeah. [1:40:17] Here's the thing, though. [1:40:19] That guy's going to melt your piss cup. [1:40:20] Oh, yeah. 100%. So just like in Pride. Just like in Pride. If you put that fucking guy in one of them tester machines, it would ding like one of those cartoon things. [1:40:33] You hit the mallet and it hits the bell. [1:40:37] There would be fireworks going off, streamers coming down. There's a chance that guy's on the natch. Come on. But that's just like Pride, you know? Yeah, exactly like Pride. Yeah, Pride. Everybody was juicing that. They just had the enhanced games. I know. [1:40:50] One world record was broken in the 50-yard. Yeah, really, that was a 50-meter swim. But they were wearing a suit. He's wearing a suit that's illegal. Yeah, because it makes you slippery. And it was a guy that had already beaten the world record, like, I don't know, a couple years back. Somebody's beaten him since. It's no one really – it wasn't that successful. And I talked to a friend of mine about it, and he was like, I think, first of all, they're not, like, monitoring everything everyone's doing. They're not optimizing them. If you really want to juice these people up, you can't let them do it themselves.

[1:41:20] where you put them on this stuff, but also, like, what are we doing? Did you hear the reason why they're doing it? Why? The whole thing is kind of like Red Bull. You know how Red Bull does all the crazy, you know, different stunt stuff and everything? Their whole thing is they are a... [1:41:35] They're a... [1:41:36] company that gives out or you know puts out these monthly things of TRT and all these different you know things with testosterone stuff so they did this whole thing as an advertisement basically for people to see that being enhanced is better and that you'll come and now sign up for it's I think it's $399 a month for your [1:41:59] whole thing to be a 399. The enhanced program. There you go. It's the enhanced program. Okay. So when did they... Thank you, Jamie. When we had them on, Jamie, did they bring this up? [1:42:07] I don't think they did. Maybe they adopted this later because we had them on like about a year before they were going to do the games. And I was like, let's go. Juice them up. Juice everybody up. [1:42:21] Yeah. What about enhanced fight games? [1:42:25] Very interesting. The Vitor Belfort days. [1:42:29] When you truly look at it, because I look and say, look, as long as you if you open it up to everyone, then it's someone's choice. You're going to hear all that thing. Well, you know, you can do it if you want. You don't have to do it. [1:42:38] But... [1:42:39] It's different when you're lifting a weight or you're swimming in a pool or doing those things or you're beating on another human being. [1:42:47] It's just there's a difference. You're creating damage in the sport of fighting. 100%. Do you want to enhance someone?

[1:42:55] in being able to do that. You're also enhancing your ability to take damage. [1:42:59] You can take that into consideration. You're going to get hit with less shots because you're going to have more endurance because you're going to be on EPO. You're going to have – That's always good for you too. Super good. Yeah. The strokes that you get on EPO are the best. [1:43:16] Yeah. But I mean like I got to think there's a way to do all those things if you're monitoring your blood work and you're being very careful where you don't go crazy like the Russian cat. You know people – [1:43:28] That's human nature. Yep. [1:43:30] You're right. One step, take another. Yep. Yeah, definitely. [1:43:34] yeah and if that guy has skills imagine that guy oh my god imagine if you got fedor you go bro oh yeah you want to keep fighting [1:43:40] I got you. I know you're 49, but listen. That's only biological. I can make you 32 again. Yeah. We get you in a hyperbaric chamber every day for two hours. [1:43:52] And this is what we're going to do. Testosterone in the morning, testosterone at lunch, testosterone at night. And a little growth after. Oh, growth is all day long. You're taking growth from the moment you wake up. We're going to get you up to about 290 shredded. We're going to peptide you. [1:44:06] I think part of the attraction to Fedor, though, is his belly. 100%. You know? Yeah, 100%. You lose that, and I'm like, ah. I mean, imagine Lorenzo saying, I don't want fat guys to fight. And you see Fedor. He did everything he could to get Fedor. Yeah. Well, they did. They really did. Oh, yeah. No, he did. [1:44:22] It was kind of crazy. He was negotiating with some dangerous characters. And Dana was like, we've got to up our security. This is getting heavy with these guys. They wanted a piece of the promotion. That was the whole... Everyone talks about that. It wasn't Fedor.

[1:44:39] You know, Fede Ferolde would have fought for anyone, and it wasn't the price of what he wanted for money. It was... [1:44:45] M1 was associated, Vadim Finkelstein was... [1:44:49] Fedor's manager, he had M1, and he wanted a co-promotion with UFC. And the UFC said, no. Yeah. We can't do that. That's the one thing we can't do. And that was the end all right there. Yeah. Yeah. [1:44:59] Which is unfortunate, right? Oh, totally. Because we missed out on the greatest matchup of all time between Prime Kane and Prime Fedor. Yeah. Prime Kane and Prime Fedor would have been fucking nuts. Yeah. Nuts. I agree. I mean, absolutely nuts. Yeah. Nobody had a gas tank like Kane. Nobody. I just talked to him yesterday, Kane, and I was just talking to him about it. I said, if there's one fight you could come back for it, and he's like, ah, you know, I'm not really like, he's not, he's just, he's completely checked out of the fight thing. [1:45:29] He's doing a great job of training guys. To me. He's back doing it. He's not. He's not? No, he's not. Uh-uh. Just talking to him yesterday. I was just talking to him at the fights last week. No, he's just like, no, I'm kind of just disconnected. He's just trying to get his life back. Well, understandable. Yeah. Understandable. That's the one fight. I said, if there was one fight I could pick for you, it'd be Fedor. That'd be the one fight I'd want to see out of him. We missed that. It's funny because everyone talks. I agree with you completely. [1:45:55] Everyone talks about, you know, the fight that they would have put together would have been Brock against Fedor. Yeah. And I look and I go, yeah, it's probably not that good of a fight. Yeah. It's like Brock would have had such a hard time standing up with that guy. Yeah. Fedor, well, a good example. Like the Brock fight to me that was like kind of the craziest fight was Alistair. He was juicy. Uber-eam. Uber-eam. Yeah. The most juicy he ever was. That wasn't juice. That was horse meat. That was everything. That was horse meat. He definitely ate some horse meat. Oh, yeah.

[1:46:25] No doubt about it. He was also eating pills. Oh, that guy. There was a lot going on. But he was a monster. He was huge. World-class kickboxer. You see him now? Yeah. He's like a vegan now. He doesn't look anything like you do. He looks like he did. Yeah. He's back to his pride days. Slummed down, looking good. Yeah. Back to his supermodel days. Good for health. Yeah, right. By the way, that guy's been KO'd a ton of times. Seems fine. Oh, yeah. Like, he did the commentary during the Usyk fight, the Rico fight, and it was like, the guy is fucking talking great. [1:46:55] and articulate. It's not, not everyone gets affected the same way. Right. And it is, you know, there is, there's little factors and you can see the difference. There are guys, you know, that are, been boxers with 70 professional fights. Dude, they talk fine. Everything's good. [1:47:10] There's also a gene. I think it's called APOE4. And if you have that, like, what is it? How does it work? If you have it, you're protected, or if you have it, you have the problem. [1:47:20] So there's one gene expression that makes you more likely to get CTE. Yeah. [1:47:25] For whatever reason. Yeah. [1:47:27] What is it? Put that into perplexity and see what it says. There's a gene that you have in your body that... Yeah, some people have it and some people don't. And if you have whatever it is, whether it's gene expression... [1:47:40] I'm a moron. I'm not the guy to talk about this. But Dr. Rhonda Patrick talked about this. And she was saying essentially that if you have this, here it is, APOE4 appears to increase the risk of severity of chronic traumatic encephalopathy. [1:47:52] in people with significant repetitive head impacts, but is a modifier of risk, not a cause by itself. So, meaning, obviously... If you have it and you're not taking headshots, you're okay. It doesn't do anything. Right. But if you have it... Yeah. So, scroll back up again, please. A large post-mortem study of 364 people with RH1-294 with CTE 70 without, carrying APOE4 was associated with more advanced CTE stage and higher tau protein burden in the frontal lobe. Yeah.

[1:48:22] older than 65, but that's just because they haven't been testing all the MMA fighters or all the boxers. Because if you're just testing regular folks or football players, [1:48:33] It's like football players is probably, in the country, the most people that have had trauma. Absolutely. Because you think about high school kids, even junior high kids. Before that. Yeah. I mean, they did a study of, I forget how many different people, but they found that [1:48:49] Every one. It was like nine out of ten had it in every group, whether it was high school kids, college kids, some level of CTE. [1:48:58] Which is nuts. Yeah. Not just NFL, not just college, high school kids. Everything that we've learned and we know today comparatively. From here, I'm going to Florida for the Association of Ringside Physicians. They have their annual conference. And they put on all these different things. And we put together programs for down fighter things and all this stuff. [1:49:20] We know so much more now. Joe, it used to be I would go and do a presentation for him, and it was one of the first things. When I first did it, I asked him a question. The real simple question was, let me ask you this. If a guy gets hit with a shot, boom, and he's... [1:49:37] Out, going down. And he hits the ground. [1:49:40] and [1:49:41] The fighter comes in and hits him with a shot. Is it possible for him to hit him with a shot and actually wake him back up? Every one of them back then, no. [1:49:49] That's impossible. All it will do is intensify the effects of the first shot, all this stuff. I took a DVD. I said, let's watch.

[1:49:57] What fight did you use as an example? Oh, dude, I had a bunch, you know, and it was a matter of... [1:50:02] It was trying to show them, hey, all these things that we think are just not true. We have to branch out and start to figure this stuff out a little bit more. In boxing, it's different. [1:50:15] Boxing establishes time for me to make decisions. MMA takes that time away because I have a fighter that is now, instead of walking towards or trotting towards a neutral corner or something like that, they're trotting towards that person to do more damage to them. And so you're making that quicker decision. And we've had too many fights where we have someone – [1:50:36] that they're out going down and then hit the ground and you have to actually... [1:50:41] Wait. I just had one last week with Jason Jackson is fighting his opponent, Jeff. Creighton. Creighton. And Creighton gets hit, and he's going down, and I'm going in to stop it, and I see he starts sitting up, and I go, I've got to wait. [1:50:56] And it's like, I don't want to wake. Don't sit up. [1:50:58] And he comes back, boom, hits him, goes out, I stop it. But it's like those are the ones that you look at and you go, man, to understand the way the human body, everyone responds differently in certain situations. But we've learned more as far as the human body will do weird things in traumatic situations. And it is the ability to hit someone and to take those synapses that are connected and to separate them.

[1:51:29] That's crazy, isn't it? They can get snapped the same way. Isn't that crazy? It's nuts. In the Hermes Franca fight in UFC 47, 46. Jesus Christ, don't go back too far. Yeah, too far. But we're in the third round. I catch his leg, and he throws a little loopy shot and drops me. I have the leg in my hand, and I'm just going. I can see my face headed towards the canvas. My eyes are wide open, but I can't put my hands in front of my face. My face bounces off the canvas. It wakes me up, and then I start fishing for legs. Wow. I can see everything. I can hear everything. [1:51:58] in front of my face. And my face hits the canvas. I wake back up and he starts jumping on me. I start trying to fish for legs and trying to get to guard. And... [1:52:06] That's how that goes. Wow. The first thought to go through his head is, I hope I didn't damage my face because I'm so good looking, right? Jealous. It's a problem. It's jealous. This guy's jealous over here. I told you the whole time. But actually, you violated the stereotype that good looking guys can't fight. Oh, yeah. There was a little bit of a stereotype that good looking guys, when push comes to shove, they're going to fall apart because they're too good looking. They don't want to get fucked up. I don't think so. Not true. I've seen too many good looking guys. Look at Rico. Look at Rico. Yeah. Verhoeven's a fucking model. Yeah, he is. Beautiful man. [1:52:36] Kane and DC for a couple weeks. That guy's a fucking murderer. Oh, yeah. He's a murderer. And when we were talking earlier about the fight and him, his boxing is really good. His cardio, like you guys were talking about, is fantastic. But, man, he has no fear of being taken down. He has no fear of any of these guys. Kane and DC didn't care. He would fight them to the death on defending takedowns. They were like, man, DC was the...

[1:53:01] As soon as they touched gloves, he would just right to the legs. You know, he almost fought the UFC. [1:53:06] Yeah. They offered him Derek Lewis. But then the Usyk fight came up. And it was like, listen, this is $15 million. Oh, yeah. $15 million. I can't say no. And look what happened. I mean, amazing choice. Because in most people's eyes, he won most of the rounds of that fight. Go back and look at some of the fights. That one right there. Okay? You know, it's the most recent. Look at Francis Ngannou against Tyson Fury. Yep. And look at the scoring on that one. Go back to Conor McGregor versus Mayweather. [1:53:36] what you want to say. Connor won the first couple rounds because Mayweather didn't throw any punches. You don't, this whole thing about, oh, you're general ringmanship. Bullshit. You're not throwing punches. You're not winning a fight. Okay. It's a fight. It's not a dance. It's not how pretty you look. And so you can go back and I can tell you, look, I've talked with some of the judges off of the Mayweather McGregor. They go, I made a mistake. I gave credit where I shouldn't have given credit. [1:54:02] How? Interesting. I think it's easier for the heavier weights, though, to go up to boxing and have a little bit more success than it would be for the smaller guys. Like Ilya Tepori to fight Bud Crawford. Oh, no, no. Stop. Stop. That's crazy. You know what I mean? That's my point. The level of boxing talent there with Bud and Ilya, it's not even close. It's not even close. Bud's one of the greatest to ever do. Absolutely. Absolutely. But Ilya maybe could be if he just went into boxing. I mean, the fucking guns are insane. Bud Crawford

[1:54:31] could. [1:54:32] go to MMA, that dude can wrestle. Right. Okay? So I would love, I mean, obviously it's not going to happen just because of the money you can make boxing is not the same. And also, he's another guy that's like, I'm done. [1:54:44] I don't have to do this anymore. Oh, dude. I did all I wanted to do. Multiple division weight champion, undefeated. Bye. Yep. Made a ton of money. See ya. Yep. [1:54:53] beat Canelo and boxed the brakes off of him. Boxed the ears off of him, exactly. Crazy. When he was pity-pat punching him and then hitting him with big shots, like that's what you do to someone when you're playing. He had Canelo so hard. [1:55:04] Absolutely frustrated during that fight. But I remember watching. I was in New York. Gleason's gym. [1:55:11] Terrence Crawford is there and he is boxing all these guys and just playing just absolutely you know come on next one boomer and touch touch he never tried to hurt any of them never tried to throw a big punch you just look and you go [1:55:27] How good is this guy? He is that guy. And one of the best switch hitters to ever do it. Oh, yeah. In my opinion, it's like him and Hackler. Yeah. They're like right there together. It's wild. Greatest switch hitters. Yep. [1:55:39] Does he get boxed you Southpaw, and then all of a sudden he's Orthodox? You're like, oh, no. Dude, the funny part about him is you see it in MMA. Guys will switch when they take a step and throw a punch, and they'll switch to a different – [1:55:50] So, you know. [1:55:51] He does the same thing, and he does it and then takes a lateral movement that had Canelo like, where the hell is he? And he's going, hi, bap. And you go, oh, my God, he's so goddamn good. He hit Canelo with a straight left, and then Canelo went to counter, and he had the hand still out there, and he turned it into a left hook. And I was like, good Lord. It was so pretty. You could see Canelo's like, here, I come back, bang. He gets dinged with the left hook.

[1:56:21] unique i've said this before i've sparred with robert ghost robert the ghost guerrero and because he lived in gilroy and we would train together all the time he would use me for the i'd be in fight shape ready for my ufc fight just judge his son's fight yeah just literally i'd show up i was the first four rounds of a 12 round session he knew a new training partner every four rounds this guy would just piece me up he would just toy with me and it was embarrassing i'm like i'm in the best shape of my life but i by round four i was exhausted and he was barely touching me because [1:56:51] - Yeah, yeah. - So good. - Skill. - And he wasn't at Mayweather's level. He's fought Mayweather, but he wasn't that level of slickness, but he made it look like it when I was in there with him. - It's all in comparison. - So good. - I mean, there's guys that look, like, look at Jack Della Maddalena when he fought Carlos Protas. You're like, Jack Della Maddalena is one of the scariest strikers in the sport. And then he fights Protas, you're like, oh. - Yeah. - Levels. - Oh, there is a difference. - Levels. - That's it. - That's what you try to, and everyone has this idea, we talk about it all the time, and I go, [1:57:19] You don't understand the difference this much makes in the difference of how you compare in a fight with somebody. Levels. Oh, my God. Levels, especially when you get a guy like Prates that had so many high-level Muay Thai fights. That's the big difference. These guys that with only striking, they develop an understanding of positions and technique that's just not available if you're training the other stuff, too.

[1:57:49] the other stuff but that other left you're not gonna catch them you're not gonna catch protest when it comes to muay thai that step in fucking tomahawk elbow that he does holy shit dude [1:58:00] And he's playing. And he smokes Marlboros. And he drinks. He smokes Marlboros in the back. No, it's crazy. He's getting ready for the fight, and he's smoking blunts. What was the guy that fought Delahoya that would come out? [1:58:11] Smoking cigarettes. Oh, yeah, my orga. Yeah, but I mean, my orga was never at the level of practice practice like is so fucking slick, man. I [1:58:21] Some of the shit that he was doing to JDM, like, JDM is a fucking killer. And he had no success. No, he was drowning. He was drowning. And it was, it's also like, what is going on with his limbs? Why are they so big? It's like crazy. Like, he says he's six foot one. The fuck out of here, bro. I want to measure your height and your length. Because I think there's some bullshit. Yeah, he's just all lengths and all. I think he did this for his reach. [1:58:48] His reach is nuts. [1:58:51] Like all arms and legs. [1:58:53] And the technique is so beautiful. It's so beautiful. The setups, when you think he's punching, he's kicking the fuck out of your calf. And he's like slowly breaking you down, slowly breaking. And the knee, that fucking knee that comes out like a jab, his knee is nuts, man. You go back to his fight with Gary. [1:59:11] You know, and you look at, you know, Gary was doing great. That last round, you know, he came back on it. And you look and you go... [1:59:19] If this was five rounds, it would be a real problem. Hello. But it also shows you how fucking good Ian Gary is, man. Oh, absolutely. That's the whole point. It shows how good he is because he has gone against guys that are a real problem as far as stylistically. His fight against MVP, Ian Gary fought as smart as you could fight and did a wonderful job in showing, hey, I'm multifaceted. I'm not just this one style fighter.

[1:59:49] I knew he was really elite, but I'm like Leon's so technical and he's so slick. Like if it's just and process not going to try to take him down like this is going to be a very interesting fight. Yeah, but it wasn't. It was it was Carlos Protas show. He put on a fucking show the relaxation the confidence of being out there also to Leon understanding like I was the champion. I'm not the champion. It's hard to get back. He's had he's had mindset has changed a lot. Yeah, it's been hard for Leon ever since he when he lost that that title fight against. I [2:00:16] Muhammad and you look and everything that's happened to him since it's just you know, [2:00:21] Confidence is everything. Yeah. Well, the Sean Brady fight might have been even more brutal than that because Sean just mauled him. Mauled him. When Sean gets on top of people, like what he did to Joaquin Buckley was bananas. No, it wasn't. I look at that, and this is why. [2:00:38] Sean Brady won against Craig Jones. Now, it was an advantage as far as winning, but he grappled against the real Craig Jones and showed that he could stay with them. Right, but you know in that match, Craig was not allowed to use leg locks. You know that, right? That's crazy. That's like fighting Ernesto Hoost and you only can kick above the waist. You know what I'm saying? Well, that's just for Rick Rufus. That's a smart idea. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying? It's like Craig Jones, you've got to give him his full game. [2:01:08] oh, I can't do this. Yeah, that's true. He's taking away 50% of his attacks. But Sean Brady on the ground is elite. Really good. Elite. But it was just the ability to hold him down was just shocking. I mean, it was like, God. And then when he was mounting him, it just, like he was doing drills. Yeah. It wasn't, it was just like staying calm and just bang, bang, bang. It was like he was doing conditioning drills on a heavy bag. Like he was just sitting on a heavy bag, pounding on the bag. Time. He was. Bro, it was nuts. I said this, maybe I caught some flack for it a little bit,

[2:01:38] I think the Ian Gary fight and the Proftis fight for Islam, both those fights, I'm not saying they're easy fights because they're not. But you put someone like a Sean Brady against Islam, and that becomes a little bit of a problem. A little bit more difficult. But that's matchups. Big difference. Styles make matchups. Styles make matchups. They really do. When you look at someone's style comparatively... [2:01:58] One person is easy for someone, they're very difficult for someone else. If you're going to put someone against Islam as far as... [2:02:06] It's gonna be on the ground with him and give him difficult times. There's not a big enough. There's not a big enough sample size for me with Michael Morales I think Michael Morales could be a big threat on the feet the rest are gonna say well you be e beach on Brady so obviously stopped him Yeah, yeah, but the size I think of Michael Morales will give Islam some problems as well and Michael Morales can fucking wrestle Yeah, right. It's not like he's Ecuadorian national champion is what he was and then you know, he's obviously our power and [2:02:30] But he's super athletic. Islam doesn't do the normal wrestling. Nope. His takedowns are different. Yep. A lot of foot sweeps, a lot of judo, a lot of difference in the way he does things. And world championship experience. Yes. And also the years of training with Khabib. Yeah. Years. What he does so well is he does it off a transition. As soon as you punch you guys anywhere inside the clinch, he's already hitting a foot sweep into the inside trip. Can't get it? Okay, I'll drop him down on a single or a double. You know I'm excited about it. One seven. He's Amosov. [2:02:59] Oh, dude. That Ukrainian cat. Oh, we know. We know. Of course you know. We know. He's good. He is absolutely the real deal. Yeah. He is good everywhere. Everywhere. And his wrestling and his grappling ability, his submission ability, is at the top of the field. It's right there with Sean Brady.

[2:03:21] Am I lying? No, no, it is. It is. I just... [2:03:23] There's one guy out there, though, and he was just talking about him. He's the one guy that he lost to who's not signed by the UFC, and that's Jason Jackson. He's the one guy to beat him. [2:03:31] I'd love to see Jason Jackson in the UFC. Where's Jason now? He just fought an MVP. He just fought an MVP. Won in like 10 seconds. 22 seconds. 22 seconds. I had a hard night. I had 22 seconds and 17. It was very difficult. I was exhausted. But he's the only one. He's the only guy to beat. [2:03:47] Jaroslav Amoslav. He is. Wow. He's fantastic on the feet. He has a wrestling background, but he chooses to stand. He's got like 30 jobs, a coconut stand, a car washing stand. He's got all kinds of business. He works. He works all the time. He's a working man. He's a working man. [2:04:00] He's very talented. I love watching that guy fight. I think him, you add him against a Proctis or against an Ian Gary, these guys would duke it out. It would be a great fight. It's interesting when there's guys that are at that level that aren't known. [2:04:14] Yeah. And he's a former champion. Jason's been there. You've got to figure he was in the UFC as far as the... [2:04:20] The Ultimate Fighter, when they did that whole Black Zillions versus ATT. Oh, that's right. He was part of that. That's right. And he's just always been on the cusp of being brought back in. You're looking and you go, he's got all the talent in the world. And he's tough as hell. He'll fight. He is tough. Who is that cat, that heavyweight, that just knocked out? [2:04:40] Hannon Ferreira. [2:04:42] Oh, that's Sergei Bilistino. And he's one of Fedor's boys, right? He is now. That dude.

[2:04:51] That dude's scary. The other one. Dude, that dude is yoked. Yoked and moves fast. He's fast and he's got power. But then you also got Nemkoff. Nemkoff's at heavyweight now. Yeah, and Vadim Nemkoff. He's another guy that's at the top of the heap that's not in the UFC. Vadim Nemkoff is good. Yeah. And, man, he is. Extremely athletic. He's not a big heavyweight. He's got great lateral movement. He's really good with his hands. He's a 240. Beautiful kicks. Yeah, he was a 205. And he can wrestle. He's 240 now. Yeah. And he can wrestle. He can do everything. [2:05:21] Stan, but he'll mix up the wrestling and kind of get you... [2:05:23] Get you guessing? And he's another Fedor guy. He's another Fedor guy, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another one. Like, training under Khabib. I mean, if you're a Russian guy, training under Fedor, good Lord. Yeah. What a crazy opportunity. Yeah, but you've got to live in Stario School. Do you really? That's where they live? That's where they live, man. Oh, boy. Oh, yeah. No parties there. Nope. Nope. [2:05:44] You better have snow tires, too. Oh, yes, you better. Thick clothing. Thick clothing, snow tires, and hate comfort. Oh, my God. [2:05:53] Yeah, there's a lot of talented guys that will come out of the promotions, but I'd love to see Jason Jackson in there mixing it up with those guys. Stylistically, the matchups are there. And the practice and Gary. The 170s right now. And putting Jaroslav, when the UFC finally signed him, I said, thank God. Thank God. Yeah, me too. He deserves to be there, and they need that kind of fight. And look, he's gone in and proven. Dude, his fight against Joel Alvarez. [2:06:19] Joel Alvarez is a good fighter. I mean, he made him look...

[2:06:23] Absolutely. [2:06:25] The guy didn't know hardly anything. I watched it yesterday. I watched it again yesterday. The last takedown. When he airboarded him. Oh, my God. But look at the ease that he did it with. That's the thing. Spectacular technique. Oh, my God. And the tightness of his grappling. And his training partner. [2:06:46] is Johnny Ebelin. Ah. Same guy that's training partner now for Sean Strickland. Ah. That makes sense. Johnny, those guys. [2:06:54] go after each other daily. And Johnny will tell you, he's the one that gives him the most fits inside the gym. The one that I spar with the most, the one that just gives me all the fits. On the grappling, the wrestling, all those things. Go back to his fights, too, in the past when he fought Ed Ruth. He hip-tossed Ed Ruth. Oh, my God. Took Ed Ruth down. Three-time national champ out of Penn State. I mean, he was having success against him. It was a very close fight, you know, and he ended up winning the fight. But it was one of those fights where you're like, damn, you walked away going, [2:07:20] This guy can wrestle. This guy can stand. He's chasing submissions. He's trying to get finishes. I mean, he had takedowns against Logan Storley, a six-time state champ out of South Dakota. Four-time All-American in Minnesota. And a four-time All-American out of Minnesota. [2:07:33] Phenomenal. Phenomenal wrestler, but he's able to have exchanges with these guys, chasing anacondas, darces, knee bars, everything. Extremely talented. There's a lot of guys that I would love to see to kind of mix in. Because every time... Because when you look at the history of the sport, you got like Strikeforce. When it came into the UFC... [2:07:50] Those were the best fights. And you start pulling, plucking. I'm not saying that a lot of these guys need to come in right now, but if you can pluck one or two guys for each division, it starts sprucing this whole thing up. Because for a little bit before the Paramount deal happened...

[2:08:03] Because I cover every fight every week, right? And we talk about it on the pod. It's just simply put, everyone's like, man, these fights are trash. They're garbage. This and that. I'm like, guys are being complainers. The cards are great. You guys are just, they're used to that. [2:08:16] The next level of the Connors and the Alex's. The stars. Yeah, on every card. When it comes to just technique and just fighting ability, there's some amazing fights out there. Amazing fights. When you add in, like when Michael Chandler came in, there was a lot of hype around it. When Patricio came in and Aaron Pico, when they came in, there was a lot of hype around it. It kind of puts a little shot in the arm into the weight class and gets everyone amped up. The fighters that are there at the UFC, they're like, this guy ain't fucking beating me. I'm not letting this bum from this other promotion beat me. [2:08:46] of like, no, I'm here to shoot. I'm here to prove that I deserve to be here. So it kind of, it gets the fans amped up, it gets the promotion amped up and the divisions kind of gets a little bit of a spark. So I'd love to see that happen a little bit more. Absolutely. Absolutely. [2:09:00] You know, the Pico thing is really interesting. It's like his last fight, he looked so tight against Pitbull. He looked so good. Everything looked so smooth. Like his boxing was flowing. His transitions to grappling was flowing. He fought intelligently. Like that's the Pico that we needed to see. Yeah, but you take a look at his first fight against Lerone. And I always say that was a Pico that was pressing. He was pressing that fight and making, you know, taking chances. [2:09:30] Absolutely. And you look and you go...

[2:09:34] This is the difference between that first fight in the UFC and wanting to do so well and wanting to prove how good you are and stuff. And then finally relaxing and just, hey, let the fight come to me. Let me show what I can do. And taking those moments when you get them. [2:09:48] That's what he did in his fight against Patricio. And look, Patricio is good. And Pico could be so good. He just has to relax. He's still young. Oh, yeah. He's had a bunch of pretty bad chaos. Yes, he has. The Borax one. And that's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Borax, you had the one against freaking Corrales. Yeah. He hurt Corrales and then he got starched. [2:10:11] He's had a couple of them. In both those fights, he was winning. And that's the thing. He was beating Boric, and he was beating Corrales. The fights that he lost, I mean. So hyper-aggressive. Yeah. And that's part of the problem. That's it. But it's also because he's so fucking good. But he's got the best left hook to the body since Paul Daly. Oh, it's so smooth. Oh, my God. It's beautiful. I mean, just his left hook, period. It's such a whip. The technique is so smooth. Yep. It's so nice. So I've got to ask you about the Joe Schilling fight. [2:10:41] that's it, I'm quitting. So his opponent headbutts him. And then Mike Beltran is a great referee, [2:10:47] takes a point away? He did take a point. And then puts him right back in the same position. Okay, stop. That's not exactly what happened. It's not? Well, it is what happened. Yes, you're right. Okay. But... [2:10:58] When you have a situation like that, you have the headbutt. Mike Beltran calls a stop, calls timeout, gets them up off of their feet and tries to put Joe – Joe's pissed. And I understand why Joe's pissed. He's saying, hey, first off, Joe's 42 years of age. He doesn't come there to be fouled. He's trying to – he's going to fight. Okay.

[2:11:17] And the whole thing is look where his hands are. [2:11:21] They're overhooked right now. Right, right. Okay, the other guy's got his hands on the ground. Right. Okay? So... [2:11:27] You know, you don't want your hands on the ground. Okay. So Joe's in a decent part to at least if he wants to defend himself. So when he gets up, he's pissed off and everything. [2:11:38] and then [2:11:39] Beltran takes a point from the opponent and asks Joe... [2:11:44] Do you want to be [2:11:45] You want to stand up or do you want back on the ground? And Joe picked, I want to be back on the ground. Okay? Why do you give your, why do you, why are you allowed to make a decision? You're allowed to make the decision because you were the one that was fouled in a normal situation. He said, I want to be back on the ground? He said, I want to be back on the ground. That seems crazy. I agree with you. It's not what you would expect out of Joe Schilling. World class, world champion kickball. Exactly. Yeah. [2:12:11] And with that, he's the one that's fouled. If the person on top is the one fouling, normally we're going to say they're going to lose their position. But there are many grapplers and people that have a hard time getting that person down. And so we went back to saying, all right, we're going to give the person who was fouled the opportunity to make a decision. Normally we're going to put it back on the feet. But if you want to put it back on the ground, I'll put it back there. But you're going to be in the same position as you were when the foul occurred. Right. [2:12:41] went to do. And so he starts to put them back. [2:12:44] You have Abena is the opponent, and he starts to...

[2:12:48] Put his hands on Joe's biceps. If you watch when they start to put him back on the ground... [2:12:55] Joe tries to do the overhook. You saw the overhook, and Abena starts to put his hand on the biceps. He did it on the left bicep, right? Yeah. And so it's not a matter of... [2:13:06] You know, Beltran wasn't there to start the fight yet. He's got to put him in that position, but Joe... [2:13:10] Once that bicep thing started happening, he got mad and he said, I'm done. Stop the fight. [2:13:16] Yeah. [2:13:17] you can't make somebody fight. If someone says, I want out of the fight, they're out of the fight. So Beltran was in a position where... [2:13:25] He says he wants out of the fight. He started, he fouled me, and that's what he's saying. And now he feels like he's not going to be put back in that same position. But he hadn't been, it's not like... [2:13:34] Beltran started it. He's trying to put him back in the same position when Joe's kind of just losing his steam and getting pissed off. And so I look at him and say, look, if you're going to be that pissed off, it's a good thing you're not fighting because you don't fight smart and you're going to end up getting hurt. But he's the one that decided that. [2:13:52] So he clearly has two overhooks at the end of the fight. At the time of the foul, he's got an overhook. [2:14:00] Both sides. Yeah. Well, sort of. The right one's not totally overhooked. But he's holding the back of the triceps, so you're going to say, okay. So that's where he's at. Look where the opponent's hands are at. [2:14:10] The opponent's hands are under his shoulders. Yeah. Okay? So that's where he should start. That's where it should be started. But he never gave Beltran the actual ability and time to say, no, no, put your hand here. And you can see Beltran starts to, you know, as Abena starts to try to put his hands on the biceps, Beltran's starting to put him underneath. So it's not Beltran. Why Joe would want to go back to the ground? You know, that's the real question.

[2:14:40] then Joe Schilling can fight. [2:14:42] You know, Joe Schilling, he was a gangster. No doubt about it. And he, at this point, is, you know, is he looking to, you know, become a champion? No, he's not looking to be a champion. So I'm taking the fight for what reason? For money. And so I think he just looked at it and based upon, well, this is not what I expected. I expected a fair fight. I expected us to, you know, fight like professionals. And this dipshit is now headbutting me. He just got pissed and he lost his cool with it. And when he wasn't. [2:15:10] being put back right away into that same position where he thought the guy is now trying to up again, take another advantage. It just sent him off the end, and he said, I'm done. [2:15:19] Right. He just got too emotional. He got too emotional with it. That's a bummer. Yeah, it is, because Joe's a great guy. When you fought at the level he's fought at, you expect a certain level of professionalism. Yep. And when you have these young guys that come in, it feels a little disrespectful. Like, you knew where you were at. Why are you trying to game the system right now? Also, you just head-butted him. Yeah. Which is crazy. Well, there's a lot of people saying, well, you know, I don't think it really hit him. [2:15:40] It hit him in the jaw. Okay, it didn't hit him head to head. And you're not allowed to use your head as a striking instrument. It's a foul. And it's pretty clear that he was trying to do that. Yes. It wasn't as simple as positioning his head. No. Try to get a better... Look, we say you can use your head as a steering instrument, as a third arm. You can press with it. You can do a lot of... [2:15:56] uncomfortable things with it. You cannot pick it up and bring it back to strike. And it was clear that that's what he was doing. That's exactly what he did. [2:16:04] I think it's just very awkward for a lot of people that see Joe Schilling in his past fights. He's been through it all. And then for him to get super frustrated this way, it was a lot of people questioned. I'm like, I don't question at all because you expect, like I said, a certain level of professionalism. Like we know that we're both going out there to fight and knock each other out. Why do you got to cheat?

[2:16:21] There's a certain set of rules that we're doing this under, right? And now you're taking those rules and just tossing them to the side like – [2:16:29] This doesn't mean something. No, it means something to me. I'm 42 years of age, and I don't expect someone to be fouling me just on purpose. [2:16:37] No matter what. [2:16:39] That was, you know, right now we use intent. Okay. That was intentional. Right. He did something. I call it malicious. It's a malicious attack on him. You know, you're maliciously trying to inflict an injury on someone through a foul. [2:16:53] Yeah. [2:16:54] Yeah, no doubt. Did you watch the MVP fights? Yes. What was your takeaway on that? The overall card as well as the Gina and Ronda fight. I mean, look... [2:17:05] When you're coming in as your first time putting on a promotion, there's no way it's all going to be smooth. It's not possible. You know, just there's no way. You're also – you're not dealing with the same caliber of names other than Gina and Ronda and Francis. You know, the Mike Perry-Nate Diaz fight was – [2:17:26] When was the last time Nate fought MMA? [2:17:29] It's been a while. Probably six years. It's been a while. Yeah, probably six years. Somewhere around there. Which is kind of crazy, right? And Mike has been fighting bare knuckle. [2:17:37] and fucking people up for quite a while. Dude. He's an animal. Yeah. He's found his sport, though. 2022. So four years ago. Four years. Four years ago, he beat Tony Ferguson. But he's found his way. This is stylistically his...

[2:17:51] The best thing he could do for his career is fight bare knuckle, fight boxing. This is the best thing for him. And Mike is like... [2:17:59] uniquely talented at bare knuckle. Like, uniquely. I'm being honest. I used him as my demonstrator for... Andy Foster is the executive officer in California. And he didn't like bare knuckle. [2:18:13] You know, I wrote the rules for Bare Knuckle long ago. Dave Feldman came to me and said, hey, you know, I need rules written for me. I'm trying to legalize this. You know, someone that I knew hooked him up with me and I said, look, I'll write your rules. And I gave him two prices. I said, I'm not doing it for free. It's too much of a pain in the ass. [2:18:43] doing this and, you know, oh, what does John McCarthy think he's doing? Now he's writing rules for that. Did you write the rules for slap fights? No. I don't like slap fights. I hate those. [2:18:53] You can't defend yourself. That's it. That's the only fucking rule. That's the dumbest thing ever. [2:18:58] So crazy. Have you seen the other where they just run at each other? Oh, no. It's even worse. They're like, hold my beer. Oh, my God. You think slap fighting's retarded? Hold my beer. We're just going to run at each other full belt. And it's called, that's what it's called. Run it. Right? Those things are crazy. It's crazy. But the whole thing with the Mike Perry thing is trying to get athletic commissions to start to understand. Because they're all into this thing. Joe, it's like, you take a look at MMA. I'm allowed to hit you with a shin to the dome, like you talked about.

[2:19:28] knee and hit it to your dome. I'm allowed to take my elbow and smash you, you know, even when your head's against the ground. I'm allowed to do all these things. But... [2:19:37] My bare fist is the big problem. It's kind of funny. Oh, it's ridiculous. But it's perception, and perception is a real problem because people believe what they're saying. Oh, it's horrible. So Andy Foster was one of the ones that he didn't like it. And I said, Andy, I tried saying, go through those whole things with the shin, the knee, the elbow. And he goes, yeah, I know. He says, I just don't like it. I said, Andy, I need you to look at it this way then. I go, there are people out there that are made for boxing. [2:20:07] Terrence Crawford, Canelo Alvarez, they're made to be a boxer. They have all this technical skill. [2:20:14] You know what? They're just unbelievable. I said, there's these guys, same thing in MMA. There's the George St. Pierre's. You know, you got the Alexander Volkanovsky's. You got the, all these people, you know, that are, you know, Islam Makachev was the last one I used. I said, they're made for MMA. I go, Mike Perry. [2:20:30] Was an MMA fighter. I said, he's not made for MMA. He's a tough guy. I go, but bare knuckle, he was made for. I said, and this is a guy who can make a living. [2:20:44] fighting for bare knuckle. He can pay his bills, he can support his family, fighting bare knuckle. And become a star.

[2:20:56] Make it so you can live the rest of his life. [2:21:00] And you're going to say that you want to take that away from, [2:21:03] because of a bare fist. I go, it just doesn't make sense to me. And he looks at me and goes, you're right. The best thing that could have happened to him was him leaving. Him being released from the UFC or in the UFC? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN, and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? [2:21:33] Accept it, schedule pickup, and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. [2:22:03] Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. [2:22:14] You got an old-timey ring? [2:22:17] Andy Foster's calling you. That's funny. Put him on speakerphone. You want me to? I don't want to put Andy under a spot like that. And Andy's done such a great job. He's great. He does things that people don't realize.

[2:22:31] He's now got a license plate that's out for retired fighters to try to get them a retirement. He's got a retirement for boxers already that was set. [2:22:44] Thompson, who fought 15 times in California. 19. I looked it up. Is it 19? Okay. I'm wrong. 19 times in California, he can get an actual retirement. Now, it's not going to be a retirement that he gets paid every month. They'll give him a large sum of money that he can then go. He can go to a trade school. He can buy a house. He can do these things as a down payment. Andy just put in a thing. It just got turned down because of a staffer. It was Assembly Bill 2130 in California. [2:23:14] bill was [2:23:16] No money out of the taxpayer's money. Zero taxpayer money. It's about sponsorship. A dumbass like me as a referee has to wear a sponsor's thing on my shirt. That will then... [2:23:28] 75% of it went to retired fighters. 25% of it went to training for... [2:23:38] Upcoming and in-service officials, both judges and referees. What's the negative? There is no negative. But you get these people in politics that sit there and go, oh, I don't like this. You want to know what their negative was? This is in California, by the way. Yeah, this is in California. California is the best state for decisions. [2:23:58] But their whole thing was. As we both live in Texas now. Think about this. We all. We all left there.

[2:24:08] that would allow the sponsor to say that they're basically part of California and they're running, they're doing things for California. It's like, [2:24:14] They are doing things for California. They're helping the people that fucking put on fucking entertaining fights and things for people here. [2:24:21] It's ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. There's nothing good. There's some great people in California. There are. Sure. And there's some great assembly people. I just did a whole thing for Heath Flora, who's an assemblyman there, and he's putting up a bill about... [2:24:34] You being able to, if you protect somebody other than yourself and from somebody that's trying to do something, he's trying to make it to where they can't civilly go after you. Makes sense. Yeah. You're doing the right thing. Right. But no, there's people fighting against it. Why? It's just, oh, politics. Politics suck. They suck in California. Yeah. My dad always used to say, think about the word politics. Poly meaning many, ticks, blood sucking little insects. [2:25:06] It's a bummer. It's a bummer. It's crazy. And then did you see the Cokers returning to MMA? [2:25:13] I did. Give me your take. I like Scott a lot, but... [2:25:18] Good luck. You only have $60 million. Yeah. When I saw it was only $60 million, I was like, that sounds like a lot of money. Until you think about putting on an MMA promotion. It's hard. And then getting television production. And then paying fighters. And then securing venues. And then having staff full-time for like...

[2:25:39] Maybe. [2:25:40] You got Tony Hawk with you? Maybe. Look, I'm rooting for him. I think he did great when he was running Glory as well as when he was running Bellator back in the day. He's a really nice guy. I think it's great for everybody if there's more competition. I think this whole MVP thing and the Netflix thing is great. It stirred a bunch of cash into the organization. A bunch of people got more money than they would have ever gotten anywhere else. Awesome. More options, the better. I hope he can do it. [2:26:10] I think a lot of people do because I think as they do grow promotions, right, the fighters get more experience on a high-level competition. You need to fight fighters from all around the world. I'm just excited for more promotions to be involved. Yeah, more promotions is good. More options is good. More money is what we really want. The fighters need to get more money. It's always going to be the UFC here. Yeah. And ultimately it just comes down like you need more people to build up to get to that level. Name a good XFL game that you watched. You know what I'm saying? [2:26:40] That's true. Nothing wrong. I'm sure it's great athletes. But it's the whole thing. You're part of it. What you did with the UFC and how you made it exciting for people when you were calling fights. It's a [2:26:52] People now, a lot of them, they don't even know the fighters that are on the card. But they'll turn it on when it says UFC because they believe in the product. And that's what you're supposed to do as the company and for marketing. But the one problem I do think they have right now is... [2:27:08] They're unable to market people like they did when you and I were early in it and stuff. They now are in a position every week. And so it's tough to market the guys who are not well-known. I mean, the fight nights, a lot of times, the casuals have no idea there's even a fight night. Exactly. And some of them are fucking insane. Oh, some of the best cards. Some of the best cards. We talk about all the time. It's like the card itself rates, if you're looking at it, honestly, it rates a 5. On paper. It rates a 5.5. On paper.

[2:27:38] And then you'll watch it and it's a 9.5. Yeah. It's kidding. Yeah. They're working to get to the top. Yeah. Those are the hungry ones. They've got something to prove. Yeah. And for hardcore fans, it's like giving them constant food. [2:27:49] Or drugs. [2:27:52] Give them that dopamine. It is the thing when you look at it. It's the hardcore fan that the UFC has. [2:27:58] But the casual one is the one that puts it over. Yep. And it's hard to get people to understand. You need to get the casuals, the ones that don't watch fights all the time. And that's the one thing I'll give Ronda Rousey. I thought she did an amazing job of talking. 100%. And putting things out there the way she did. She got people's attention. She did what was her job. Yeah, and 17 million people were watching that. That's huge. That's huge. It's all good for everybody. It's good for the sport. It's great for the sport. It's like that's what we need. [2:28:28] competition, more eyeballs on it. And unfortunately for the people that are casuals, it has to be a name. This Conor McGregor fight in July is going to be fucking bananas. [2:28:40] It's going to be bananas. I mean, people are going to go crazy for the return of Conor McGregor because he's a giant personality. But don't expect the same. [2:28:47] How could it be? He just can't. He hasn't fought in five years, right? That's exactly it. He's been in five years. But that's the problem. It might be more. Because they're going to all expect that. I think it is a little over five. It's almost six, I think. [2:28:57] It might be six at the time of the fight. I think it's five. I think it's five right now. Are we expecting to see a Conor that looked like Nate this last fight? Or are we expecting to see a better Conor than someone that looked like Nate? Because Nate did not look good. No, Mike Perry did. Mike Perry looked like a fucking murderer. You know what I mean? Mike Perry is a murderer. He's a murderer. Such a savage. You take a look at that. When you're taking an older fighter, which Nate is now. 21. Five fucking years ago, July.

[2:29:27] It literally will be six years. Oh, no, it'll be five years. Five years. When you're taking a younger fighter and putting them against the old dog... [2:29:36] It normally doesn't end well for the old dog. Well, the thing is about Max Holloway is like Max Holloway isn't that much younger than Conor. No, he's not. But the thing is Max has been in constant high-level competition the entire time. Won the BMF fight, beat Dustin, like constant high-level competition. That's right. It's a different thing. And I honestly believe him at 155 is the best thing for him. Absolutely. But he's not 155 in this fight. He's 170. Honestly, he might be better. No weight cutting at all. [2:30:06] walk around. And also, knowing this is such a high-profile fight, he's going to... I mean, Max is always in insane shape, but particularly in this fight, he's going to be in fucking insane shape. And his last fight, he took almost no damage. [2:30:17] He got taken down, controlled, back taken, and there was not a lot of damage taken. No, just frustration. Yeah, frustration. Bro, Charles looked like a motherfucker in that fight, didn't he? He's so good. Dude. He's so good. Good everywhere, too. And on the ground, he's just so goddamn dangerous, which just makes you think, how good is Islam? Because Islam just smushed him. I can tell you he's really good. [2:30:41] I mean, it's kind of crazy, though, when you think about how strong Charles' grappling is, [2:30:47] Dude, he called it. He called it. He said, he goes, Islam is going to submit Charles. And he goes, and he's going to submit it with a head and arm choke. I said Kimura or head and arm. I said either one for sure. I go, shut up. Yeah. Okay, just shut up. He's not going to do that. I said he would do it before three rounds. He did it, you know, obviously very quick. But it was. His grappling is just otherworldly. And the way he secures that darts by grabbing the forearm. I've seen a lot of guys try that now. A lot of guys are going to that now. Because you don't have to get as deep.

[2:31:17] You just go through and it's right at the top of the... [2:31:20] Cover the head with your chest and just suck it in. You see people doing things all, you know, we always talk about, you know, back a long time ago, figure four in the body. We go, don't do that. They step the foot inside. It cranks you. It's bad. How about that crazy guillotine that A.J. McKee does? Oh, the McKee-a-teen. Yeah. How about that fucking thing? Like, how come no one's doing that? That's the whole thing. Okay, look at what Brett. Body styles. When he did that, I was like, wait. Yeah, his body style. He's so long. He's long. [2:31:50] Especially at 145. He's huge for 145. [2:31:52] Yeah. He's a big boy. But Grant Dawson just did the genie choke. Okay. How many times have you seen that done in competition? But I've seen it in the grappling room all the time. Right. Guys doing it, right? Right. And all of a sudden people are like, never seen that. It's like, dude, it's been around forever. Well, it's like when we talked about Edson Barboza knocking out Terry Edom. How did he get to that fight before that was the first wheel kick KO? Yeah. Well, we've seen a ton of them since then. But that was the first one? Like, that doesn't even make sense. When Anderson Silva front kicked Vitor in the face, we were like, wait, hold on. [2:32:22] Yeah. [2:32:23] You could do that? Yeah. Like, I remember Eddie and I having a conversation about kicks, and he goes, what do you think about front kicks to the face? I'm like, eh, doesn't really land that often.

[2:32:33] Incorrect. And then Machida does it to Randy, and then Machida does it to Vitor. Oh, my God. So Vitor's been on the receiving end twice on that kick. Yeah, man. I mean, there's been a bunch of them now. Now you see a lot of front kicks to the face, because it's such an unexpected thing, especially if a guy's, you know, you're getting hit to the body with it a bunch, and you're getting [2:32:53] it hits you right on the chin. It's just such an unexpected technique. Every time we think that we're not going to see something new, something new pops up. But the crazy thing about front kicks is it's literally the first thing you ever get taught. When you learn how to kick, that's the first thing you ever get taught. The idea of there being a new use for the first thing you ever learn is kind of crazy. A little snap kick. Yeah. That's nuts. I mean, karate, that's day one. [2:33:18] Just like that. Exactly. And that's what it looks like, too. [2:33:23] all goofy and shit. The fact that that's the kick that... [2:33:27] And then calf kicks, of course. That's number one. It's interesting because Cub Swanson is actually saying that he was the first guy to throw calf kicks. He was saying, no, no, no, go back to 2011. I was landing calf kicks. I forget who he fought. They said he fucked somebody up with a calf kick. Well, then I'll tell you before that, though. Benson was one of the early ones, for sure. George Masvidal. Really? Yes. He was doing it in Strikeforce in 2007, 2008. Really? Well, I believe... Around that time. If you look at... [2:33:56] ATT as a team, they do calf kicks all the time. That is a huge weapon that they use. You go back and watch Masvidal when he fought K.J. Nunes and how he just destroyed K.J. Nunes. And he was kept kicking the calf to the head kick, to the body shots, to the boxing. He just pieced him up. People forgot how good Masvidal was. When he knocked out Eve Edwards for the head kick, people really sleep on Masvidal. Masvidal was slick. He was so good. When he knocked out Cowboy. Oh, my God.

[2:34:26] Darren Till. Darren Till. How about that one? That one was bananas. That step-in hook. Yeah. Woo! Yeah, because that was a weight class above what he normally fought. Yep. Yep. You know, he was one of those sleeper guys. But he was better when he went up, just like most guys are. But he never got the credit he deserved. Everywhere he went, whether it was Strikeforce, into the UFC, he never got credit until he started doing things that people didn't think he could do. Right. You know, when he knocked out, like you said, Darren Till, the running across the cage with Ben Askren, like those kind of things. He had no love up until those moments. It's true. That guy was always nasty. Always. Yeah. [2:34:56] way back to his street fighting days with Kimbo. Right. He had some good ones. Yeah. That's, I, I, [2:35:02] I wanted to ask you this because I look at these guys now. What is it with the younger fighters that can't get past the old dogs? Like Dustin doesn't have to retire. Justin Gaethje doesn't have to retire. They're still ranked at number two and number three. What are you seeing on your side that makes you think like – [2:35:17] These young guys, these old guys, they're not going softly into the night. They're not letting these guys come by. Why can't the younger guys get past them? Patty not being able to get past Justin. Patty was not at Justin's level with stand-up. Justin's level was quite a bit. First of all, Justin is an elite grappler. So what is Patty going to do? Is he going to take him down? That's not picnic. And standing up with Justin. Justin has some of the nastiest fucking leg kicks in the sport. I wish he'd use him more. [2:35:47] Remember when he used to throw them from the clinch? He's in tight with you and he's kicking down on your legs. And you're like, how are you moving your hips like that? [2:35:55] He was an animal. He still is an animal.

[2:35:57] It's like he hasn't faded. You know, Justin's not faded. That Fazeev fight? Fazeev is an elite world-class striker, and he beat him upstanding. Twice. Yeah, he hasn't faded. Justin hasn't faded. He's just 36 or whatever he is, 37. I think he's losing, but... [2:36:16] You've got to have a passion for the sport. And I think Dana says, look, if you're not 100% in, don't do this. And he's right. And I think there comes that point where it just gets to that, you know what, there's other things out in the world that I want to start doing and things. Do you think Justin's at that spot right now? I'm not too sure he's at that spot, but I think he's thought about it based upon some of the performances and the... [2:36:40] tight fights he's had. I think the fight with Max Holloway made him... [2:36:44] kind of think about... That was a tough fight for him all the way through. All the way through. All the way through. He lives a comfortable life. He does. I think he lives a good life. He enjoys playing golf with the boys. Oh, yeah. You know, he's... [2:36:57] He's another guy. I know he's like, oh, I've spent money. I need to make more money and this and that. But he also, to me, every time I take a look and when people talk about him, I think that he's done really well for himself. I think he's doing well for himself. I don't think he's in any danger where he's losing the passion of it. Well, I did the Naked Gun or whatever, the second edition of the Naked Gun with Liam Neeson. And we had Kamaru Uzman and Justin Gaethje were two of the fighters in it, right? And he was hysterical throughout the whole thing, right? [2:37:27] a button pusher with Kamaru. Kamaru would say, okay, let's go easy. And all of a sudden Justin's doing something crazy. And Kamaru's like,

[2:37:34] what the hell is wrong with you? [2:37:37] He loves life. He enjoys life. And I think that, you know, there comes a point where he always had that attitude, you know, when he was undefeated. He goes, oh, someone's going to knock me out. He's honest about things. And I love that about him, that he doesn't sit there and he doesn't play the, you know, oh, well, we'll see. [2:37:52] He's honest. And he tells you, you know what? This may be my last one. And he's thought about it. And if he's thought about it, [2:37:58] It's telling you, it's a thought process is there, how far will it go? If he has a great performance against Ilya... [2:38:05] I think he'll stick around. Maybe. Unfortunately... [2:38:08] I kind of think I'd rather see him go away. I know that's saying because I love watching him. I would love to see him win and go away. That would be nuts. That's the whole point. That's what I said. That would be nuts. It would be awesome. That's how he wins the title at the fucking White House. And that says that's it. I've hit my bucket list. The White House thing is odd. I don't like it. [2:38:26] I don't like the idea of fighting outside at all. There's problems with it. And then it's June and it's D.C. And we looked it up the last time, like last year, same day, it was 100 degrees. Yeah. [2:38:40] Oh, yeah. That's hot as fuck. Then you add the lights. Oh, yeah. You add the lights. You add the lights. That attracts bugs. How about dehydration? Oh, yeah. Yeah, the bugs are a big one. Go back to UFC. Yeah, with all those lights. Yeah. Go back to UFC 3. See how hot it was. How are they going to fucking do anything about the bugs? Because I know that Dana was talking about that recently. They were talking about maybe using fans. Fans. [2:39:00] Is that enough? No, it's not enough. You got bug strips everywhere? What are you going to do? Like, how are you going to stop the bugs? There's a lot of bugs. You're going to spray. That's pretty much all you can do. Pesticide the shit out of the fucking line. That's good. Pesticide. That's good for the fighters. That'll help with their breathing.

[2:39:14] I just don't think that you should compete in a world championship fight in a non-controlled environment. I think it should be inside an air-conditioned arena. It should be a controlled environment. Just like every – like, you don't ask someone to do any of – you wouldn't ask them to play a world championship. [2:39:30] championship basketball game outside in the sun, that would be crazy. Yeah. Right? You play in a fucking air-conditioned arena, and that's how it should be. Yeah, I agree with you. But I understand the whole thing. I get it, too. [2:39:41] Listen, build a fucking roof. [2:39:44] Build a roof. You've got all the money in the world, right? You want to do this for fucking America? I don't know. It's not my money. It's 4,000 seats. Build a 4,000-seat arena. How big is it? Get a fucking Barn Dominium. Put it in there. We did UFCs, the troops. We did them in the troops. We did them in hangars. Yeah, we did, but they want that White House in the background. Put it in the background on TV. Who gives a fuck? It's just like when world-class fighters are competing, [2:40:14] Look at it. They're already putting it in there. Imagine if someone loses a fight. [2:40:18] because it's too hot out. [2:40:20] Imagine if that becomes a factor. Imagine the dehydrated fighters. [2:40:25] Like the dehydrated fighters that are now being forced 24 hours later to fight – [2:40:29] In 100-degree heat outside. In 100-degree heat. Under the spotlights. Go back. I swear to God, UFC 3 was in North Carolina. Yeah. [2:40:36] And it was the hottest thing I've ever been in in my life. It was outside? No, it wasn't. It was inside with... [2:40:43] No air conditioning really inside. They put... It was a 3,500-seat arena. They put 6,000 people into it. It was...

[2:40:50] Under the lights had to be 150 degrees. You saw everyone falling out. Hoist had the problem after chemo and stuff. Ken Shamrock fell out. They all pulled out and stuff. It was... [2:41:03] Joe, it was the hottest thing I've ever been in in my life. It was brutal. You have to ask yourself as a fighter though, is the spectacle worth my career? Right. Like, is it worth me going out there and fighting? [2:41:16] In these circumstances that I'm not used to. Well, we did one outside at Abu Dhabi. That was when BJ Penn and Frank Edgar fought. And then Damian Maia. Anderson Silva against Damian Maia. And that one, bro, there were bugs flying around. It looked like birds. They were so big. I was like, that's a bug? What kind of bug is that? Can that kill me? This is crazy. You're in the fucking desert, man. There's some giant-ass bug flying by. You can hear it. Yeah. Yeah, bro. Make sure your microphone's not picking it up. [2:41:46] coming by. You're outside. It's hot. You're in the desert. This is crazy. Why are we fighting outside? No, because I think I had read somewhere where Habib had said, no, I prefer Islam not take a fight there at the White House. There's too many distractions. You got all the media. You got that whole week. Plus, it's outside. These are all things that your fighter is not used to doing. Why would I jeopardize his [2:42:04] win streak, his second title. Why would I jeopardize all of that? Yeah, his legacy, everything. [2:42:09] Just so we could fight at the White House. I know it seems great. Yeah, I fought there, but at the end of the day... You got to look at it. I worked so hard to get here. I don't want to lose it over this one thing. I just feel like you could put a roof over it. I mean, you got all this money. You're making a ballroom? Yeah. Make a little... Do it just on a regular basis. I mean, are they finishing the ballroom? Are we going to get that thing done? I don't know. Make your own Apex Center.

[2:42:33] Boom. That's true. Make a fucking barn dominium. How hard is that? You know what I'm saying? Hard. Trust me, I just finished one. Did you? Oh, my God. Yeah, but you're one guy. Exactly. Get a fucking team of the United States civil engineers. Get the fucking army to do it. That's cheesy. [2:42:49] So you're going to be at that one? Yeah. I'm going to be there. Allegedly. Allegedly? If there's not a bomb that goes off between now and then. Who fucking knows? This world is crazy. I love what you did with the Ibogaine with it, man. Thank you. Way to go. What was the process on that? [2:43:03] that take oh i don't care what the process was way to go thank you the process was me texting trump literally i'm not both along there's a lot of i texted him on friday yeah he showed up to the ufc on saturday shook my hand and said it's done [2:43:17] You're kidding. Oh, no. I'm not kidding at all. No. I texted him. He texted me back. Are you looking for FDA approval? Sounds good to me. I tell him how effective it is at helping all these veterans with PTSD, people with traumatic brain injuries, all these different things. I mean, we have a problem with fentanyl in this country. This is one of the best things that we've ever demonstrated. Gets people off. I'm like, listen, there's so many people that risk their life for this country. They come back, and there's no help, and this is the only thing that they've found helping. Yeah. And it's illegal, and that doesn't make any sense. [2:43:47] for something that you got because you were defending your country. That's nuts. And so he, right away, he was like, look, this makes sense to me. Like, he cut through all the bullshit. Common sense. And there was a bunch of people that were trying to get in the way of it. A bunch of people. I mean, inside the White House people that were trying to get in. He's like, fuck you. Fuck you. Do it.

[2:44:09] And he, like, was telling them, just do it, make it happen. And he made it happen. And that's amazing for everybody. Yeah, no. It was amazing that, you know what, you stepped up because you are going to be helping so many people. I don't think people don't have an idea of how bad it is and what that can do for them. So I think way to God. I was like, see, I always say you always talk about you're a dummy. I'm a dummy. I always tell people, he's super intelligent. And you are because you got that done. It just proves it. [2:44:39] else. I've never asked him for anything. Never. Maybe a signing pen or something. He gave me those. I didn't even ask. I've got a bunch of stuff. I've got a pen. I've got a bunch of things. But I was like, if there's anything that I would really ask him for that is, it's bipartisan supported. [2:44:56] Like Democrats support it. Republicans support it. Eighty five percent of the country supports it, especially when it comes to things like Ibogaine, which is not even remotely recreational. No, I haven't done it. People sick. Everybody's done. It's horrible. You get diarrhea. But it's 24 hours of misery. But when it's over, you're a new person. Good. And look, Rick Perry, God bless him, because if it wasn't for him getting behind it, that changed everybody's opinion. Here you have this Republican former governor of Texas who's talking about it and then talking about his own personal experiences doing it. [2:45:26] you [2:45:26] So him and Brian Hubbard, I mean, they really went all out. And when I had them on my podcast, not once but twice to talk about this and the state of it where it's being passed in Texas, they got $100 million from Ken Paxton. So which is – yeah, no. Was it Ken Paxton? No.

[2:45:42] No, who is it? [2:45:46] Dan Patrick. Sorry, Dan Patrick. So Dan Patrick, who approved this $100 million for this Ibogaine initiative. These people all deserve praise. There's a lot of people that for the longest time, they thought of psychedelics as being something that losers do. And then they realize, no, there's a lot of people that need help. And this could help everybody. There could be a good side with the whole country. I was just in San Diego last Monday, and then I was in L.A. on Tuesday. Okay. [2:46:11] And it's unrecognizable. [2:46:13] It's crazy. It's sad. Like I, and I, and when you take a look at San Diego, it's always been beautiful beaches in the background and, but it was worse than LA. I was in the Burbank area and actually it was a lot nicer than San Diego was. And the gaslight district was just disgusting. What is it? A gas lamp? Yeah. It just, I couldn't believe it. I walked into a couple of restaurants. You got homeless people stumbling in, trying to order, not trying to take. [2:46:36] food off of people's plates while they're there. I'm just like... [2:46:39] What is going on? No law enforcement. That's right. It's the first time that I've went back and I've been back, you know, in the last three years, I've been back two or three times a year easily. It's the first time I went back. I was like, man. [2:46:50] This is not... [2:46:52] what it used to be. It just felt like for the first time I didn't feel safe there. [2:46:58] God. And it's weird to me. And how do you get that? How do you bring it back? Yeah. [2:47:02] Oh, it's simple. [2:47:04] You bring it back by doing the right things, common sense things. [2:47:09] Oh, I understand this. Who do you get to do it? Do you think Chad Bianco does it? Do you think Steve Hilton does it? Who do you get to turn the state around? Your girl, Katie Porter. She get it done? Oh, Jesus Christ. She'll scold everybody into compliance. But I'm sitting outside having dinner last night, and I'm watching a bunch of homeless guys.

[2:47:31] talking to themselves. And this is the problem. I was a police officer for 23 years. I've been out there with them. And you have people that, you know, they have serious problems. You know, and I understand, you know, the ACLU and stuff, they, oh, it's not right to put them. No, it's better for them. And it's better for the people that are out on the street, just trying to live their lives, to have that person be put into a place where they can receive [2:48:01] And try to get them back than it is to let these people just rot. [2:48:05] on the street and self-destruct. A hundred percent. And I'm watching and it's like, how is that so hard to figure out that it's better to do something with them than it is to just let them be? [2:48:18] It's crazy. Yeah, we've lost our way as a society. And I think a great reflection of that is how many homeless people you have camped down on your streets. Yeah. Those are the places where they've lost their way the most. That's it. [2:48:28] And this is unfortunately a lot of these Democrats run cities. I owned a couple of gyms in San Jose and just it was tent city and along the highway, like leading up to my along the road that led up to my gym, all those things. But you would see they would they were stealing solar panels from people's houses and they would put them up on the side wall so they could charge their cell phones. Like they're smart enough to do things. Right. It's not as if like they're not. They're just drug addicts. That's a lot of that's it. [2:48:54] A lot of it is just struggling. But in areas like San Jose. That can help with that. A hundred percent. But things like in San Jose or San Francisco, they're giving them needles. They're giving them drugs. They're giving them reasons. They're giving them phones. It's like, why are we doing this? Well, the other problem is the amount of money that's involved in the homeless industry now. That's right. When you find out that California spent $24 billion and homelessness only got worse. And what have they done? Nothing. Not only that, but they tried to do an audit on it, and the governor vetoed it. It's like, no, nothing to see.

[2:49:24] It's only 24 billion, guys. Well, how much did they spend on that bridge that had the... For the mountain lions? Oh, my God, yeah. What are we doing? Hey, hey, hey, that's okay. The mountain lions need a fucking bridge. They need hugs. They need hugs. It's... I don't know, man. They need to wake up. And the problem is that they're in this bizarre mindset, this liberal leftist mindset that's just not tenable. It's not... You can't defend it. It's not... That's because it's crazy. It doesn't work. [2:49:54] Yeah. I always look at this. People talk about left and right. And most people are, I'm in the center. I think a lot of people are. Yeah, most of us are. It's not where. But you get labeled as being on the right if you're not all the way to the left. If you're not all crazy, you're to the far right. Yeah, it's nuts. It's absolutely just psycho. A nutty seesaw. Oh, my God. Well, I just saw something that, I can't remember who it was, but they continue to talk about, you know, let's keep taxing the billionaires. Let's keep taxing the billionaires. [2:50:24] What? With the money? And that's the point, though. That's the thing. So why don't we just not... They're going to go away. Why don't we just not tax the people that make under $200,000? [2:50:32] That's actually something Jeff Bezos brought up. He said you should – the bottom 50 percent, the people that make the least amount of money, don't tax them at all. He goes because they're not contributing that much to the tax base anyway, and they would contribute more to the economy if they had more money to spend. Absolutely. It would help everybody. That's right. [2:50:48] I think he's right. I always said $150,000 down. Yeah. You don't pay taxes. That's a great number. I also thought about it, too, is if you were to take – if you got rid of the – because

[2:50:58] They're talking about this housing shortage and all the other things. Why don't we get rid of the low interest rates? Because I have a couple of interest rates on some houses that I have that are at 2%. How do you get rid of those? Well, why don't you just raise my capital gains tax so I don't got to... [2:51:11] My wife and I or whatever, we can pay less on that versus that $500,000 threshold. Why don't you make it a million? [2:51:18] So then I'll cash out on those and just take my money out. And then I'll start putting it back into the economy again. Yeah, but you're talking like a sensible businessman. You can't be doing that in California. They'll put you in jail. They'll put you in Twitter jail. You can do the death tax that you did in New York. I mean, look at what Mom Donnie's trying to do. Oh, that's nuts. Oh, my God. People are just going to bail out of that city. It's crazy. It's these fucking people that think taxing the rich is the solution. And do what with the money? If you were doing a great job with the money and everything was accounted for and there was no fraud and waste, [2:51:48] I'd be like, well, maybe you just need more money. But that's clearly not the case. You've got so much fraud and you're ignoring it. And then this Nick Shirley kid, when he exposes it, everybody's like, yes, you should be praising him. Hello, give that kid an award. Give him a fucking award. Here, I want journalist of the year and he's not a journalist. How much fraud do you think is in this country? Billions and billions and billions. I mean, Elon had said when he first came in, he goes, hey, I think it's close to a trillion dollars, maybe a little bit over. [2:52:18] bad that he didn't want to talk about it too much he was worried they'd kill him. [2:52:22] You know, he really said that. Don't. It's wild. Joe, he's not lying. He ain't stupid. No. He's not. No, he's not. He's anything but. No, he's not stupid. He's anything but. But I mean, to think, though, and think how much in California they've discovered, let's just say what? 200 billion? At least. You know, somewhere around there. That's on the low end. New York's probably, and Chicago is, and then, I mean, but they've got to do it in all states. You can't just do it in the ones where it's LA and Chicago and New York. We've got to do it in all states.

[2:52:52] Yeah, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. There's fraud, and these people are profiting off of the fraud. They were funneling it right back into the parties, and it's dirty business. Well, you didn't really think that that shovel the government pays for was really fucking $900? [2:53:07] Well, there's a lot of that is they get a budget, and they have to spend all the money. They have to spend every bit of it. Yeah, otherwise they won't get the same budget next year. Which is wild to me, because the schools operate the same way. If the teachers don't spend a certain amount of money on these things, then they don't get the same budget for next year. [2:53:22] No, no. Why don't we reward the people that actually save the money? Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. It just makes no sense. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What is wrong with you? Well, gentlemen. I want to know when do you come into my class, though? Your refereeing class? Yeah. When is it? When do you have it? July 17th to the 19th. He's gone. [2:53:39] Oh, I'm not even going to be in the country. Oh, okay. [2:53:46] Where are you doing them? [2:53:47] Usually I do them in Vegas at Extreme Couture or something like that because I need the gym to put people in cages with fighters. If I can, I definitely will. I would love to see it. I'd love to see it and be able to talk about it. Is there a location we could do one here? Because that way I don't have – that way – at any time. [2:54:02] You have my number. Text me if you have a question. During the fight, it's the text. It's like when you say the waiter. I get them all the time, so it's not... Just wrap it up, right? I get them all the time, so... [2:54:14] Yeah, it's nice when you know exactly what the referee can do, where they're going to go. And when you're looking, like with a Mark Goddard or a Herb Dean, when you know, if you go to the club, you'll know exactly, hey, this is what he can do, and this is why he'll do it. I'll definitely ask you. I promise. At the very least, I'll ask you next time an issue comes up. No problem. I'll have you on speed. There you go. Maybe I'll put you on speakerphone at the UFC. Hey, everybody, Big John's right here. Don't do that.

[2:54:44] it's the one thing that I'm always watching and it's like, you know, and you guys are like, I don't know, I don't know. I'm like, this is the answer. Well, I'll reach out. I promise. Love you. Thank you, brother. Love you too. Love both of you guys. This was fun. Let's do it again. Oh, absolutely. There's always going to be fights to talk about. Frickin' A. I live up the street, so let me know anytime. All right. Fuck yeah. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye, everybody. [2:55:14] . [2:55:17] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [2:55:28] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. [2:55:43] I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier and isn't getting more time. [2:56:13] to get best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

[2:56:26] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. [2:56:56] Free samples, zero pressure. Right now, get up to 45% off site-wide. Plus, get a free professional measure at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply.