JRE MMA Show #175 with Shakur Stevenson

[00:00] well uh anyway thanks for coming down here man appreciate it and congratulations on that standout performance against tiafemo because that was uh [00:22] That was a giant wake-up call for the entirety of boxing. The level that you're on was so high that you could be in there with a world champion, a world champion, and make him look – a guy who beat, I mean, legit guys, including Lomachenko. Yeah. That was a big victory for him, and you made him look like he had no business in there. [00:45] Honestly... [00:47] It's just hard work, dedication, and... [00:50] God-given ability. [00:52] God, giving up Billy. I think you have all that. [00:56] Plus intelligence, plus you start a real young. And there's something about those dudes who start real young. You grow up with that. It's like in your central nervous system as you're a young child. Yeah. I mean, would you start boxing at like five? Yeah. [01:11] I started boxing at five, but honestly, you could say the same for Teo, too, because he kind of started at, like, seven. We both was kind of similar in, like... [01:22] experience, but I just feel like with me, [01:26] the God-given ability of my instincts always kick in. Like when we fought, I felt like,

[01:33] My brain just knew how to win. [01:36] Like, it just... Everything was just, like, my instincts kicked in and everything just took over. Like, I didn't even... [01:42] It felt like an out-of-body experience. [01:45] Well, you're a very tactical guy. One of the things I love about watching you fight is I love watching a guy who sets traps and who avoids damage. And you are one of the absolute very best ever at setting traps and avoid damage. You take so few punches in your fights. [02:15] purpose. [02:17] It was partly on purpose and partly to get his respect. Because I really didn't have a choice but to get his respect. [02:26] try to outbox him and move around the ring. [02:29] Probably would have made the fight harder than it had to be I [02:31] So I knew like I got it like. [02:34] Make him respect me early and that's what I kind of like started the fight and [02:38] Hot. [02:38] Why would it make it harder than it had to be if you boxed them? [02:43] Because sometimes when you like a guy, like if you watch today's boxing, judges give the fight to... [02:48] Mostly the guys that's coming forward. [02:51] So... [02:52] If I'd have went in there and bagging up and moving around the ring while he was more active... [02:57] It probably would have looked as though. [03:00] He's winning the fight. [03:01] So I had to make sure like

[03:04] The judges know who's winning. [03:06] So I kind of [03:07] had to take some... [03:08] In order to give some in that fight. There was a very unusual fight for you. I saw an interview with you after that fight We like I'm not fighting like that again. Fuck that Yeah, cuz I know like [03:20] I see like the modern day, like the old school boxers and like the punishment that they taken and... [03:27] You'll see them today, they can't really talk. [03:30] as well as like, [03:32] like the Andre Wars and the Floyd Mayweather who can talk good and still articulate things to their grand-terrence, to their grandchildren, to their children. Yeah. For me personally, it's like I want to make sure that I'm... [03:46] able to really speak... [03:48] well to my kids and my grandkids and all of that. So [03:52] Taking punishment ain't for me. Yeah. I support that 100%, and I applaud fighters like you for setting an example for young fighters coming up. [04:04] defense and tactics and understanding the game is the most important thing these guys that want to put on an entertaining fight and just go in there and slug it out like man you are giving up your brain for some people who don't give a fuck about you oh my god that's the guys on the truth right there i'll be seeing a lot of fighters nowadays where [04:24] They stand there like punching bags and let people hit on them. [04:28] You'll see them after the fight. They marked up. [04:31] In a few years, I don't think that they're going to be able to speak as well as somebody like me.

[04:37] No, there's a bunch of examples of that, obviously. We could all see it. But, you know, it's a complicated sport. [04:44] People that don't understand the sport and don't appreciate the sport, they just see two dudes punching each other. But they don't see subtle movements. And you were doing this, like, half-out jab and then popping him with it. And you could tell he had no idea it was coming. It was so frustrating for Tia Fimo. I was watching. I was like – there was a bunch of times where I was watching. I just was yelling out by myself in my house going, woo! [05:10] That check right hook. Woo! Woo! [05:13] It was so pretty, man. You hit him with some pretty shot, but it was just you were just tuning him up. It was a beautiful performance, man, because it was everything that I love in boxing. Skill, movement, understanding, ring IQ, knowing what's happening. And every time he would get fired up and try to take it to you, the most he could do is touch your body. That's all he was able to do. [05:36] Honestly, I don't. [05:39] For me personally, I feel like I'm like... [05:41] the best fighter in boxing. And I don't like, mean this in no disrespectful way because I got a lot of fighters in boxing that I still watch to this day that I like. [05:50] And I'm like, okay, D. [05:52] I'm going to steal this. I'm Usyk. I love Usyk. [05:55] I love Usyk. I love Bavar. I love them. [05:58] Eastern European styles. But... [06:01] For me, like... [06:03] I just feel like I'm a fighter that can do it all. Like, I can do it all. Like, whatever needs to be done.

[06:09] to get the job done, I can do that. [06:11] So some nights you might see [06:13] I might outbox people. Then some nights I might stand there and beat a guy up and [06:19] beat them at their own game. So I think for me, I'm the most complete fighter in boxing. Well, that mindset is what you need, especially in a sport where you've dominated divisions. Yeah. Right? So if you've dominated divisions and you're still looking to achieve a higher level – [06:34] You can't just look at the guys that are your competitors. Yeah. Because at 135, it was so hard for you to get fights. Yeah. At 140 now, what are you going to do? You just do that to Tiafemo. It scared a lot of people. Yeah. Nobody wants to look stupid. I mean, Tiafemo's had some good fights in the past, and he's lost in the past, but he's never looked out of place. Yeah. And he looked out of place in that fight. It's crazy, though, because when I seen him, when he fought in New York on the Times Square card— [07:03] I'm like, man, this dude is nice. Like, I'm sitting there. I'm like, whoa. Like, I couldn't believe, like, how good he was. [07:11] But it kind of like just made me get up. Like, I'm like, okay, I want to. Yeah. I want to see like what he can do with me. Right. Because the way he made Arnold Barboza look in New York was like, he just made him look like. [07:22] He's not on his level [07:24] Well, he wasn't on his level, but then Tiafimo's not on your level. I mean, this is the beautiful thing about competitive sports, especially boxing, this one-on-one, which I think is the purest form of competition, boxing and MMA, is that you can show that as great as a fighter is. People could watch the Tiafimo fight and have no idea how good he is. And I would say, go watch the Barboza fight. Go watch the Lomachenko fight. Go watch many of his fights. The guy was an excellent fighter. Still is an excellent fighter. But there are levels.

[07:54] And the mindset that you have, I am the best fighter in the world, period, is what allows you to beat guys like that. That and the hard work. For sure. Yeah. [08:06] Like I said, I'm God-given, and I work super hard. [08:11] I think the biggest thing that I don't get credit for is my discipline. [08:15] Like, I feel like I'm very disciplined. [08:18] when it comes down to [08:20] making the sacrifices and making the life changes that I need to make. [08:25] in order to be 100% on fight night. [08:27] And I feel like a lot of people don't give me [08:30] I mean, they don't know. They don't know. That's all it is. I be seeing fans tweet, and they be like, oh, get off Twitter or get off social media. But I be on social media like... [08:40] Right after I just left the gym, I'm like... [08:42] What's the problem? Like, I'm just talking my talk on social media right now. Like, let me live. [08:48] This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience is brought to you by Paramount+. UFC history is going down at the White House. It's the world's greatest fights on America's biggest stage. Watch UFC Freedom 250 at the White House live today only on Paramount+. [09:07] This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist. And trust me, I know.

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[11:19] Well, people are always looking to criticize, but there's no way you can have the kind of performances that you're having and not be locked and not be locked in. It's not possible, especially over 12 rounds because. [11:30] I mean, you know better than anybody alive that the kind of discipline that it takes to be in the kind of condition that you have to be in to fight 12 hard rounds, they put on a virtuoso performance. So it's like... It's crazy, though. Everybody like... [11:45] Y'all love the performance because y'all got to see it that day, but... [11:49] For me... [11:50] When I'm in the gym, it's still levels that I feel like I haven't gotten shown. [11:56] to the world, like, [11:57] I kind of only really shown like... [12:00] 70% [12:02] of like what I really could do. [12:05] And I feel like with that performance, it was just like, okay, this is... [12:08] This is like an okay... [12:10] Day in the gym. [12:11] Like an okay day It ain't like my best day in the gym Like I have like days in the gym where I'm like Ooh [12:17] I don't know how I just did that, but I'm just like on point. [12:23] It was a good day though. The thing is you're getting better. [12:25] Yeah, for sure. That's the thing. It's like those days that you have in the gym and this performance and the mindset that you have. Not saying I did it all. Not saying, okay, virtuoso performance, still only 70% of what you're capable of. That's what takes a guy from being a very good fighter to being an all-time great. And it's a matter of maintaining that over years and years and years that is so difficult for people. And discipline is where that comes in.

[12:55] Enthusiasm and motivation is great in the beginning. A lot of people have enthusiasm and motivation in the beginning, but it's, when you've been a champ for five years, six years, you know, the grind of it all, the 12-week training camp away from your family. People don't think about that. Yeah, that's why I'm kind of glad that I got the... [13:15] All of the things that happened in my career [13:18] where I had a little trials and tribulations happened early. So when I had my hand problem and I had like... [13:26] fight where I didn't perform as well as I wanted to I [13:30] it kind of got me prepared for like now. Now it's like, [13:34] I'm 100% on top of my game. You're not going to be able to... [13:38] Beat me. [13:40] without me being fully prepared. You're going to have to be a bad dude to [13:46] come in the ring and beat me like, [13:48] Because I just don't see it happening with none of these guys. Well, it's like how far you've gone, right? Like you started off at five and been intensely focused for all these years. How old are you now? 28. 28, which is... [14:02] prime yeah that's it like 28 to like 34 is the best year but then again you look at terrence i mean he's at an age where a lot of people say it's over and he put on the performance of his career against canelo i don't know how he do it he's like a different human being like he's so smart if i'm honest [14:24] He is like the reason...

[14:27] I'm not going to say he the reason why I am who I am today. [14:30] But he bought my game from, like, where it was at. [14:34] to a very high level, and he don't even realize [14:38] He done it. [14:40] Like me just being in the gym able to watch him and pick up on like the little things that he doing. His bad days, his good days, his... [14:47] I'm seeing everything in like when he come out there on fight night. [14:52] how prepared and how ready, how confident, like, [14:55] Honestly, I don't. [14:57] That dude kind of, he put me into a whole different world. [15:01] Now to where I'm like, oh, I can. I can beat anybody. I get in there with Terrence Crawford and... [15:07] If I could spar with him, I could. How are you going to hurt me? How are you going to beat me? I'm in the ring with the best fighter in the world. One of the best of all time. You feel me? Yeah, one of the best of all. And one of the most versatile of all time. Yes. Because that's a guy who switches up left, right. There's nothing he can't do in a boxing ring. Nothing. Nothing he can't do. And the way he sets people up. We were talking during the podcast I did with him. [15:37] and then Canelo would go to counter and he would hook it right off of the punch. Like on the extension, Canelo would lean back to counter and bop! And catch him on the chin. You could see it. It's like, oh, my God, that's pretty. I've never seen him throw that punch until Canelo, though. That's the crazy part. Being in the gym with another guy who's an all-time great pound-for-pound best, that is so valuable.

[16:07] the second best or they don't want to be in there with someone who's as good as them. You know what I mean? Like iron sharpens iron for sure. And for you to be a young guy, whoever guys, Terrence is 10 years older than you have a guy who's further down the path and be able to see him and absorb all that. That's better than any coach in the world. Yeah, but it's been going on for years. Like it ain't like just a new thing. People don't understand. Like [16:35] When I was 19... [16:37] years old, I was around Terrence. I was at his house [16:41] playing him in 2K. We'll go to the gym, argue. He really one of the most competitive persons I ever met. [16:49] in my entire life but [16:51] You have to be. I just never, like, for me, I just know for a fact my game has up because of that dude. [16:58] Yeah. [16:58] It has to. It's also you're seeing this level. [17:04] That is so high in boxing. Like you can compare it. You could go back and look at Sugar Ray Leonard. You can look at Pernell Whitaker. You look at all these guys and you can compare Terrence to the people that the pundits sit down and say all time great. Terrence is unquestionably an all time great. He might even be better than them. He might be. [17:23] Like, we all do respect to the ledgers. [17:25] I agree with you. He is that good. He's that good. I feel like there's a thing that was happening before the Canelo fight where a lot of people were sort of dismissing his previous opponents and saying he never beat anybody. And Canelo's another level. I know a lot of people bet a lot of money on Canelo. I was like, that's not a good bet.

[17:49] Mm-hmm. [17:50] If they don't know the opponents, if you're not fighting somebody that's like a bigger name, they make it seem like... [17:57] the opponents is not good. And that's like not true. Because at the end of the day, it's low level opponents that don't get the type of shine that the high level opponents get. [18:07] But... [18:09] they will beat the high-level opponent... [18:12] And are they really high level opponents at this point? [18:15] I don't know. Well, there's high level and then there's the elite of the elite. [18:21] right yeah for sure there's always that there's like some guys that if they're in like i always said that about roy jones during his prime like everybody said roy jones didn't find anybody not true roy jones just made everybody look like they weren't anybody because he was that he was so elite yeah [18:39] And that's, [18:40] Kind of the problem that Terrence was facing up until the Canelo fight. Because when a guy goes up two weight classes all the way up to 68. Right. I mean, starts his career at 35. He's crazy. Last fight, he fights at 68 and then puts on a virtuoso performance. Virtual shutout. Maybe Canelo won one round. You know, I mean, then everybody has to shut the fuck up. [19:04] Yeah, he shut everybody up because you had to see like... [19:07] He used to say that he wouldn't fight Canelo. [19:10] He used to be like, "Oh, Canelo's too big, I wouldn't fight him." [19:12] Then out of nowhere he had a change in mind and like... [19:17] He just went and attacked the situation. It was a bad situation to be in. You're going to go fight somebody two weight classes higher. Punch hard.

[19:26] - Yeah. - Bigger than you. [19:28] You're going to go do that? So for me, he just – dude is amazing. He's amazing. And another amazing example for young fighters. You know, incredibly disciplined, never out of shape, and has all his faculties. Don't smoke, don't drink. Doesn't do anything. All his faculties intact, and he's leaving the game with 100% – [19:50] No undefeated record. No questions asked. Fought everybody. There's no one lining up to fight him right now. He's older and he did it all and he came out unscathed. Bye-bye. That's my biggest goal. [20:04] It's a perfect goal. My biggest goal is to lead boxing. [20:07] And when I leave boxing, [20:10] Mm-hmm. [20:10] be good enough well not good enough great enough financially to where i don't ever have to get back in the boxing ring like i don't want to be one of them fighters that's like [20:20] need boxing like I hate that like [20:23] That's my biggest pet peeve, like, [20:25] As long as I'm having fun with boxing, I wouldn't be doing it. [20:28] But once it's not fun no more, I don't want to have to like, oh, [20:32] We got this... [20:34] $20 million payday [20:36] I need it. I don't want to feel that way. Like Floyd. Yeah. Like the situation that Floyd's in right now. This is crazy. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine right now, and he's like, why is Floyd fighting again? I go, because he needs money. He was like, what? What? [20:50] How? [20:51] Floyd made more money than anybody ever. It's like, yeah, but he spent more money than everybody ever. Yeah, I try to stay out of that because I don't know the real situation with Floyd.

[21:02] 'cause I'm not really [21:03] in tune on it, but... [21:05] Um... [21:07] The only thing with Floyd that's kind of weird to me is like... [21:11] He love boxing so much. Like, you got to actually be around him, like... [21:15] He want to be in the gym. He want to like... [21:18] So it'd be hard for me to just believe like, okay, he's just dead broke. Like, I don't know. It's hard to believe that. [21:24] Well, I think that's a good question. [21:25] If he's not dead broke... [21:27] He's definitely got issues. Yeah. Right. So he's got a bunch of lawsuits where he owes money. [21:33] You know, Logan Paul says he owes him money. He owes money for some other things. I don't know. I'm with you. I don't know. But it's also, it's like, I like a guy like Andre Ward. I like a guy who goes out on top and, you know, they offered Andre a ton of money to come back and fight Canelo after Canelo beat Kovalev. And he was like, you know what? I think I serve boxing better as a commentator and a spokesperson for the sport. [21:56] I made plenty of money. I'm undefeated. [21:58] two-division world champion, Olympic gold medalist. Bye-bye. [22:02] That's it. All faculties intact. No worries about his brain health and everything like that. That's the way to go out. Andre Ward is another dude who helped my career. Yeah? He helped my career a lot, too. He... [22:16] If I had to... If I need something, right? Let's say I need something in... [22:21] I need to figure out [22:22] how to do it or what to do. [22:25] in a situation with weight or whatever it is when it comes to boxing. [22:29] If I'm calling Andre Ward, he going to give you the best explanation.

[22:33] Like, out of all the guys, like, he explains things from detail, like... [22:39] He gonna detail it and make me really understand what I gotta do. Like, um... Audra Wood is somebody who... [22:45] I looked up two cents a kid, so he another guy. I just wasn't around him enough in a gym. [22:51] as I was around Bud. [22:53] But like Andre Ward was my favorite fighter as an amateur. Oh, really? Yes. Well, most people don't know that Andre Ward fought most of his career with one arm. [23:02] Yeah. Which is crazy. That one arm is his best arm. He's left handed for real. But it's still crazy. It is. It's still crazy. Think about all the guys he beat and he beat them with a left hand. Yeah. And then finally got shoulder surgery and then had a right hand and still still kind of fucked up. It's not 100 percent. You know, the misconception about his career. [23:25] I feel like... [23:27] when he beat Kovalev [23:29] People don't realize how good Kovalev was. - Oh, he was good in the day. - Like he was insanely like, [23:36] Fucking power boxing length. [23:40] He had everything, a great jab, a great right hand. [23:43] And for Andre Ward to go beat that dude... [23:46] That put the stamp on like [23:48] His career. And got dropped. [23:50] Yes. Got dropped and hurt and recovered and still won. Yeah. I mean, that was big. Yeah. Kovalev. People see Kovalev when he lost to Canelo. He was already kind of washed. He was done. Yeah. He was already washed. He's been drinking a lot. Yeah. There was a lot of, you know, a lot of these fighters, they get to, like we're saying, it's sustaining that will, that drive, that discipline, that focus. It's hard to do. But if you go back when he had it, man, when he was in his prime and he was a world champion, he was fucking everybody up, man. He was a killer.

[24:20] He was scary. Yeah, he was a killer. Scary right hand. Woof. Yeah. He was a pistol. I'll go back and watch him, too. He's another guy that I'll go back and watch. [24:28] I like the way he keep his distance. He keeps his distance really good. He got that Eastern European like those guys are really good boxers. Like when I watch them, I'm like, OK, like I love watching Bivouin. Bivouin is amazing. I love it. He's got such an amazing style. I mean, him, Usyk, Lomachenko is kind of a cat. That's a fight I really wish would have happened between you and him, man. Was there ever talk about that? [24:52] I messed myself up. [24:55] I kind of did this to myself, so I understand. [24:58] Um... [24:59] why a lot of fighters wouldn't fight me. [25:02] A lot of fighters wouldn't fight me because I sparred them. [25:04] I messed myself up. When I was trying to spar him at that time, I never thought, [25:12] It will be a day of me and him fighting. Like, I didn't think that far down the line. I really was just thinking he was the best fighter in boxing, number one pound for pound. [25:21] I want to be able to go get in the ring with him and see how I can do. They told me they wasn't even going to pay me for the sparring. I'm like, okay, I'm cool. I don't want to get paid. [25:31] I'm just here to get in the ring with Limechenko. [25:34] But, um... [25:35] Years later, yeah. How'd that go? [25:39] How the sparring went? Yeah. I think, see, I don't... [25:42] I don't diss nobody in Sparks, so I can't say. [25:44] that. [25:46] We don't have to diss them. [25:47] I'll keep it real with this one. Okay. [25:50] I feel like

[25:51] I was out boxing him. [25:53] but I also knew [25:56] the level he was on was like his conditioning. [25:59] And that's when it made me like, okay, I got to be in like... [26:02] Tip-top conditioning because the first day we sparred we did six rounds and [26:07] I felt like it was like, okay, I'll box him. [26:10] The next time we sparred, he made me do 12 straight. Really? Yeah. So he made me do 12 straight. [26:17] For the first eight, I'm good. Like, I'm... [26:19] I'm good for eight. [26:21] But like the last four rounds, I want to say... [26:24] He started like picking up the pace and... [26:26] He ain't get off on me, but... [26:29] He got the better of the last four rounds, I would say. And you feel like it was because of fatigue a little bit. Yeah, it was for sure because of fatigue. But it wasn't like the skills, like... [26:38] Skillfully, I feel like I was the better fighter. Like I feel like [26:42] my range and my distance and my speed [26:45] was kind of better than his. [26:47] But like [26:48] from a standpoint of being in shape and throwing more punches, [26:52] I felt like he was kind of [26:54] But he was getting ready for his fight. I was getting ready for my fight too, so. [26:58] Well, [26:59] That's a very valuable learning experience, right? Yeah. You mean better to learn it then than to learn it in a fight. Yeah, but – [27:07] Foriferal, it messed me up. [27:10] Because now it's like... [27:12] If I'm Lemachenko and I know... [27:14] He was, what, 126 pounds at the time. He was a kid. [27:19] now i see him all grown up he bigger stronger

[27:23] And I seen what he was doing as a kid, I'd probably be like... [27:26] Why would I test the water with him? Like, I wouldn't really want to see that guy. That's not the guy I would want to see. So that's funny. Um, [27:36] So you think that those sparring matches were the reason why you never got a fight with them? Yeah, for sure. [27:41] I was surprised he... [27:43] for me [27:44] Honestly. [27:45] I was very surprised. Did you spar him as well? Yeah. Yeah, but when we spar we only did three rounds, but I [27:52] He made it seem like he kind of got off on me, but... [27:56] Honestly, I felt like [27:58] I was the bad fighter. Well, Tio's a very headstrong guy. Yeah. He's tough. Very tough, very confident guy. I mean, look, when he beat Lomachenko, that was a standout performance. He had that piston jab, man. Oh, he was sharp. He was sharp in that fight. I watched that fight a thousand times before my fight. Well, I just think he knew that Lomachenko was a ghost. He was so hard to hit, and just he came out explosive. He looked so good in that fight. Yeah, I just think Lomachenko had a speed to, like... [28:25] get his respect. [28:27] I feel like Teal was kind of faster and he knew like [28:31] From a speed standpoint, he was going to use it to his advantage. Also, Tio was a lot bigger. And he was dangerous. Like, he was throwing danger with every punch. Even that jab had danger behind it. It was crazy. I felt like he was strong when I was fighting him. Oh, he's strong as fuck, man. Everybody think that he wasn't, but I'm like, man, I ain't going to lie. [28:49] It was some shots like I would catch on a glove and I'd be like,

[28:53] I don't know what you doing in your training, bro, but I'm kind of solid. Well, look at the size of that motherfucker. I mean, he's jacked. He looks great. He's ripped. Yeah, he's just, but, you know, he's not done. And a fight like that with you is a wake-up call for a guy like him, too. It's like, man, I got to tighten some shit. It's 50-50, though. It's 50-50 because sometimes they can play with your mental. [29:16] so some some guys don't be the same after getting embarrassed in front of the world like that like [29:22] Well, he's come back before, like the Kambosis fight. Kambosis dropped him early, and that was a crazy upset. Yeah, but it was different. [29:31] Because in this instinct, he got really embarrassed with Cambosis. It was like it was a... [29:36] 50-50, he felt like he won the fight. He left feeling that way. [29:41] But getting dropped by Kumbosis. Nobody saw that coming. Nah, I didn't see that coming either. I ain't gonna lie. [29:46] I think it was like second round too, right? It was the first round, but T.O. was fighting dumb. I've never seen T.O. even fight like that either. [29:53] He went in there like just trying to knock him out from the first round. I think after the Lomachenko fight, he felt like this dude is not on my level. I'm the best fighter in the world. You know, that can fuck with your head too. Overconfidence can fuck with your head. [30:05] Yeah, I be trying to stay away from that, because I'm very... [30:12] confident in myself. So, [30:15] I be scared of being too confident, so I be trying to like... [30:19] make guys bigger in my brain like oh this guy's he's the truth so that's smart yeah i got to like i don't have no choice because i'm very confident we've all seen fighters that go in unprepared and think that a fighter is not on their level and then that guy puts a knock them out buster douglas and mike tyson

[30:37] Perfect example. [30:38] 42 to 1 underdog. And it was a perfect storm because Buster's mama just died. [30:45] And Buster was always one of those guys that was known to be super talented in the gym. Super talented, but not dedicated. Just not driven. Just didn't make the most of his talent before that one fight. [30:58] He was like, I'm fighting Mike Tyson. I'm not scared of him. My mom is dead. I'm putting in the fucking work. And he came out throwing that jab with the hook off the jab. Pop, whap. Pop, whap. And it was a totally different Buster Douglas. Like the best Buster Douglas we've ever seen, ever. That final combination when he knocked Mike Tyson out. Dude, I didn't even watch that fight live. [31:21] A friend of mine told me about it. I was like, are you fucking serious? He told me at the gas station. He's like Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I went home and watched it. And even while I knew that Buster Douglas had won, I expected Mike Tyson to get up and kill him. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. That's how much of an upset that was. Yeah, that was definitely one of the biggest upset. I think. Um. [31:48] I don't know because I wasn't during that time, but... [31:51] From what I've seen, it just looked like Mike didn't expect him to be. [31:56] that good like it was a shocker i think it was a shocker for everybody yeah [32:00] Well, that's... But that's boxing. That's what could happen in this world. I've seen that happen plenty of times, and... [32:05] Honestly, it'd be some guys that I see in a gym that I'm like,

[32:11] Bro, if you do that stuff on fight night, bro... [32:15] you'll probably be champion of the world. [32:17] I guess a lot of gym fighters who really got talent, but when the bright lights come on, a lot of fighters be kind of different. [32:24] And what do you think that is? [32:27] I think it's pressure. I think it's nerves. I think it's like... [32:31] It's a lot. It's a lot. Because I know I felt it. I felt it from my fight with Tio. I felt pressure. I felt... [32:38] All of that kind of stuff, but... [32:41] I'm too tough. Like, I know my mental ain't gone. [32:45] It's me or that person at the end of the day. My life or your life, man? I'm going to choose my life when it comes down to it. [32:51] All right. [32:52] I was good, but I know it's a lot of fighters... [32:55] that I see in the gym and I'm like, man, I don't understand how you don't perform like this on [33:01] under the lights there's always guys like that there's always guys that are potential world champions in the gym and you know some people bank on them and some you know you go this guy just needs a mental coach needs something to get him over that hump but it's always interesting to me because what is the difference between a guy who could just walk out there on fight day and perform at 100 of his ability versus a guy who gets dwarfed by the moment the moment comes the [33:31] It's all mental. It's all in your head. What you thinking and what you believing and the things that's going on in your brain. [33:37] is what's going to come out, like... [33:39] I'm already telling myself, like I said, I tell myself it's either me or

[33:44] Or whom? [33:45] So... [33:46] my life or your life and [33:49] One of us got to go. [33:50] Yeah. One has got to go. But what do you think is going on? I mean, everybody experiences pressure. Everybody experiences nerves. But what is it about fighters that are so talented that let that overcome them versus fighters? Oftentimes, they're maybe not even as talented, but they rise to the occasion when those lights are on. When those lights are on, there are fighters that fight better. Like sometimes they look shit in the gym. And then when those bright lights are on. I've had moments like that. [34:20] I've had moments where I'm like, man, I felt bad in the gym. I don't know what – I had this camp. This was a horrible camp. And then fight night coming, I'm like, on point. Well, you know, that's what they said about Ali when he fought George Foreman. Yeah. They said he looked terrible in the gym and everybody was nervous about him. But – [34:36] He had a strategy. I think with, like, some fighters, it's fear. [34:40] Like, I think it's fear of, like, losing or fear of the negative happening and, [34:45] I think with some fighters, they allow fear to control them. [34:49] As in some other fighters who... [34:51] If I get fearful, um... [34:53] going to attack my fears. I'm not scared to even go [34:57] And give it a try. Whatever happened is going to happen at the end of the day. It's all written already. Is this something that you built up in? [35:05] over time? Or is it something someone imparted on you when you were young and you embraced it? Like, how did you learn to have that champion mindset?

[35:14] I think... [35:15] It's wild to say, but I think it's really my little brothers and my little sisters, but really my little brothers. [35:23] I used to go to amateur tournaments. [35:26] And if I lose... [35:28] And I got to come home to my little brothers. Oh, they on me. They on me. And it's like, you got to come home. And they remember the name of the opponent that beat you. And they would throw it in your face. Oh, don't make me go get Joseph Adorno. That's a real guy that beat me back in the day. Shout out to Joseph Adorno. But, um... [35:47] I used to have to hear that in the house. [35:50] And now [35:52] I still be with them. So it's like, I know I got to go home to my little brothers and, [35:58] See them after these fights. [36:00] And I had that in the back of my head. I'm not... [36:03] I'm not coming home to them. That's crazy. Without the win. They got us no. Did you tell your little brothers that they do that for you? No, I don't even think I ever said it to them. It just was so natural because I used to always get in fights with them, and they used to always bring up an opponent that beat me, and I'm like, [36:21] Now if I beat everybody, they can't say it no more. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Let's talk about Service Titan. Over 10,000 contractors already run their businesses on Service Titan. Now they're building an AI trained on real trades workflows. This isn't generic AI. This is AI built specifically for contracting work, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and more.

[36:51] office and growing your revenue automatically. Every other industry is still trying to figure out AI. The trades are about to lead from the front. Service Titan, the AI for the trades. Learn more at servicetitan.ai. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the [37:21] fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. Just set the temp, load the grill, and let Traeger handle the rest. Grill steak, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [37:49] Well, because different fighters develop, you know, different ways of rising to the occasion, different ways of maintaining a championships mindset. And some of them, they learn it from their coach, you know, custom auto famously trained Tyson and even hypnotized him and told him that you don't exist. Only the task exists. And he had Mike Tyson just like a fucking machine when he would get into that ring. [38:14] I think shout out to my grandfather too because my grandfather is my coach. [38:19] And like his energy during fight week.

[38:22] Like, they don't even realize, like, [38:25] It wasn't even just the coaching that he was doing. [38:28] It's like the energy that he kind of gave off to me. It reminded me of me when like, [38:33] I was a kid and me and him would go to amateur tournaments and like, he just so like amped up and like ready and like, [38:40] it kind of [38:42] brought on to me and it kind of [38:45] got me like amped up as him like okay I gotta [38:48] I got to stand on business for my grandfather. I got to. I don't got no choice. Oh, wow. But he's definitely a great coach. So family is a big thing for you. [38:57] Yeah, family is everything for me. [38:59] Like, I enjoy... [39:00] Spending time with my family. I'm not like a lot of these boxers. With all due respect to them. [39:07] They like the fame, the... [39:11] all that kind of stuff. The cars, the... I'm more so like... [39:16] I'll get a big check. I want to... [39:18] Go [39:20] on vacay with my family or go chill with my family and [39:23] I don't like doing stuff. Like, I enjoy spending time with my daughter. [39:26] That's great. I'm not like them guys. That's so smart. [39:31] It's so smart because all that other shit just drains your bank account, distracts you from your goals, gets in the way of things. [39:40] It's like, [39:41] When I was a kid, I used to want the fame. I used to be like, oh, I want to. [39:46] Be famous. Of course. I want everybody to know me, but... [39:48] It's like once you get it, [39:50] It's like, ah. [39:52] I don't like this.

[39:55] I don't like this. You go places, people pulling their phones out and like... [39:59] It's weird, right? They trying to record you. Like, bro, why are you... I'm just a regular person. Like, that's how I feel. Like, everybody bleeds. [40:06] We all the same. We all human. Right. So I kind of move with that kind of. [40:11] thought process and I feel like [40:13] A lot of people don't move with that, especially people in my position. [40:17] Mm-hmm. [40:18] Yeah, you can get inflated. Your head can get... [40:21] Screw it. It's like you got to balance two things at the same time one you are the elite of the elite you are a world champion and one of the pound for pound best ever do it and then on top of that you're just a human being. Yes. [40:33] And we're all just human beings. But... [40:36] What we like, what people love about watching championship caliber fighters and championship performances in any sport is watching just a regular human do something extraordinary. And that gives us inspiration. Like when I watch a great fight, I feel better for the rest of the day. Like when I go to bed, I feel great. Like I watched that fight. I went to bed. I was like, whoo. I felt great. I text Josh right after, right after it was happening. And that's how we got in touch. [41:06] shout out to josh but i remember i texted him i'm like dude that was extraordinary and then next thing you know we're on the phone definitely was a great um [41:18] Great night. Great night of boxing. I enjoyed it. I'm just glad to be here. All glory to God, I'm glad to be here.

[41:26] Um... [41:26] Been here. I got being here. I've been telling people like I'm the best I'm better than these guys you have but you needed that breakout You right you needed that breakout performance and the problem is everybody knew you were so good It was hard to get someone to sign up for that breakout performance because for a breakout performance You need another dude who's had breakout performances that everybody respects and knows yeah like Tiafemo and [41:48] Yeah, that was my main reason in fighting. I'm telling you, I watched them in Times Square. [41:53] I looked, I said... [41:54] We fight him. Yeah. We fight him. I want to fight him. Um... [41:58] He looked really good. He looked really good. That Times Square card was weird. He was the best fighter on the card. 100%. No question. It looked like everybody was playing it safe on that card. [42:09] Yeah, it did. It did. Like Devin Haney. The Devin Haney fight was odd. I learned, what I learned from that card, I felt like... [42:16] I felt like them fighters didn't have enough adrenaline pumping. [42:20] Like I feel like [42:22] Ryan I know when he got in the ring his adrenaline couldn't been like [42:27] too high because [42:29] It was like sparring, like it was like, [42:31] Not a lot of people there. It wasn't like that much pressure. You could hear everything somebody is saying. I know Ryan hurt me all night. [42:38] Like he had to hear me. I was cheering him on, like telling him, like, man, throw the hook, throw the hook, throw the hook. But that was when he fought Roley, right? Yeah. Yeah. That was a wake up call, too. Like that was another fight where people did not expect Roley to beat Ryan. [42:52] Yeah, I be throwing off. I didn't expect it either. That was one of the fights where I kind of like vouch for Ryan. I'm like, man, he got skills. He's a skillful fighter.

[43:02] Then he got in there and I don't know what he was doing. Like I didn't understand what was happening. [43:07] You know, it's one of them things where he has the fight with Devin. He beats Devin, gets popped. He's got to. [43:16] you know, for whatever he was on, Osterine. And then there's like, he's got a long time off. There's a lot of people mad at him. There's a lot of people, you know. [43:26] Which is such an unfortunate thing if you think about his performance against Devin because that was incredible. Yeah, but the problem is... [43:36] He got caught. He got caught. Yeah. So, like, I don't know. Like, for me personally... [43:41] If you got caught, it's like... [43:43] I can't really me. I can't give you the credit for that. [43:46] Right. I don't. [43:48] I don't give him credit for that night with Devin. Yeah, but steroids don't help you land punches. I get you. They help you recover in training. They help you train a little harder. They might give you a little bit more power, but that left hook was on point. Yeah, but that little bit more power probably wasn't enough to... [44:06] hurt Devin because if you really watch the fight and pay attention to the fight, [44:10] And people might not agree with me on this, but... [44:13] Thank you. [44:13] I feel like... [44:15] Devin was winning the moments. [44:17] that was quiet. Like when people's not really [44:21] Ah, Devin is winning most of the boxing match, but the moments where Ryan was so loud and everybody got to see him get hurt and knocked down.

[44:33] Mm-hmm. [44:34] I just feel like Devin... [44:37] If he didn't get dropped by them punches... [44:39] He could have won that fight. But he did get dropped. That's the problem. And also, I think... What if the Asterring was helping his power? Yeah. I mean... What was his last fight against? Delgado? Who was his last opponent? Who? Ryan. [44:54] Who's the guy? Mario Barrios. Barrios. That's right. Barrios is a guy that was like tailor made. [45:02] For a guy like Ryan. Like he's a tough dude. He's very durable. Takes a good shot. But he's not that fast. He's not, yeah. And Ryan was super fast in that fight. Yeah. Ryan looked good. He looked real good. Yeah, he looked good. He looked good. Real good in that fight. And it wasn't just like... [45:19] Because people think when I'm saying like, oh, well... [45:23] You don't know whether he's cheating or not. [45:26] I'm not saying that in the aspect of his boxing skills. Like, he clearly got boxing skills. [45:32] You can clearly see Ryan know how to move his feet, you know how to keep his distance, use his long length. [45:38] um he could clearly box i've been saying this for years so yeah he boxes very well and also he showed that he has a right hand too [45:46] Yeah, that was surprising. Yeah. And he used it like the whole night like he just kept throwing it. So that was very surprising. But I mean, of course, if you want to be a complete fighter, he had to develop a right hand and start using it more because that left hook is just world class. Yeah. And he was not only like throwing it straight. He was throwing it around the guard. That was kind of beautiful. It was nice. It was a beautiful performance for him. Has there been any talk about you two matching up? Yeah. Yes. But um,

[46:14] Like I said, everything got to make sense. Like, people don't understand that. [46:18] I walk around in my 40s. So if I'm walking around in my 40s, [46:24] I don't think like... [46:26] Me going to 147, like when I fight at 147, [46:30] I think that would be my last weight class. [46:32] Like in my career, like I don't see myself going past 147 ever. [46:37] But I'm [redacted address] to go. [46:41] I don't plan on moving to 47. [46:43] no time soon. [46:45] If the fight happens at... [46:47] Whatever weight class that I say... [46:49] then I'm cool with it. Can he make 40 again? He said he could. He the one who came out and said like... [46:55] Let's fight at 140. [46:57] He said that so if he said that is like, okay, you could make the weight then let's do it. What way was the Javante fight? Was that 140? That fight was at 136. That's right. And then he gave him a rehydration clause to 10 pounds. Very smart. Very smart. Very smart, right? I mean, it was smart. It was in that situation. But um, [47:20] I mean, I just feel like with the rehydration clause, [47:23] at that time when you already bringing somebody down to like [47:26] away class that they haven't fought in years is like [47:30] You could have. [47:31] not put the rehydration clause like it wasn't necessary and at that point in time i think it was necessary i think it helped a lot it did it helped a lot if you if you can only rehydrate [redacted address] bigger than that ryan's a big guy look weak on fight night like he looked extremely weak but i guess those dollars that paycheck was just too tempting

[47:54] I never understood that move. I never understood it. Because if I'm Ryan Garcia and I got a big name in the sport and all of that kind of stuff, why would I... [48:03] accept everything into somebody else's favor i think because that's the only way you get the fight [48:10] You know? [48:10] Well, this is the same thing when Canelo fought Floyd, right? Floyd made him go down to 152. [48:16] Remember? But it was no rehydration clause. [48:19] Um, what was it? [48:21] Nope, it wasn't. Even if there's not. Floyd ain't never a rehydration clause, nobody. Well, that's good. But if you make a guy get down to 152, even if you give him a rehydration clause, that's going to drain something out of your tank. [48:33] But is it right? Because my question is, wasn't they fighting at 154? Wasn't Canelo fighting at 154? Normally. [48:40] So he only came down two pounds. But you know that last – you're not a big weight cutter, but if you were, that last two pounds is death. Oh, for sure. When you're already drained out – because he was a big guy for 154. And to drain out and get all the way down to 152 – [48:56] That ought to be hard. He didn't look the same on fight day. [48:59] You think so? Well, I think Floyd was just a virtuoso that night. I mean, Floyd looks so good that night. That night, I don't think if he was 154, 160, I don't think he was beating Floyd. [49:13] I think you're probably right, but I also think Floyd was smart to get him down to 152. For sure, the business. Yeah, it's like every angle you can get, every advantage you can get is a good one. I do agree with you about the rehydration clause. Like, get out of here with that. But we got to understand, too, right?

[49:30] Because I get... [49:32] Floyd. [49:33] In that instance, if a guy is going to blow up to, let's say what, [49:38] We'll just do me and Ryan Garcia, for example. [49:43] I'm going to blow up like... [49:44] 148... [49:48] He's going to blow up. [49:49] 168 to 170 now it's like you in a ring with somebody that is like [49:55] 20 pounds bigger than you. And Floyd still allowed Canelo to get big because he got big at the getting down to 152. So it's like... [50:04] I kind of feel it in a way. Like, I understand it. Now, the rehydration clause is kind of crazy, but I will only do a rehydration clause for fighters if I go up to 147 pounds. [50:16] Because I'm not a 147 pounder, so why would I fight... [50:19] at their weight class where they're comfortable. Just make it easy for them. [50:25] Well, the thing about a fighter like you is it's just difficult to find big names. I mean, if Gervonta fights again, that's a big fight. But that would probably be at 135, which you could probably still make easy, right? Easy. No problem. So you have fights at 135 and fights at 140, but it's just going to be hard to get someone to step up. That is going to be that big pay-per-view selling fight. [50:51] yeah [50:52] That's the problem. That is the problem. You're too good. You're too good. [50:55] That's the problem. You're too good. Somebody told me that before I went pro before. They was like, you're going to have a hard time in the pros. I'm telling you. Yeah. But I understand it now. Do you remember your first pro fight? Do you remember what it felt like?

[51:08] It felt like a whole new experience. Really? Yeah. How so? [51:14] When I was in the amateurs... [51:17] God wasn't as like [51:19] Dirty. [51:20] as the professional is like, [51:22] You don't get introduced into dirty boxing until you turn professional. Didn't you get headbutted in your first fight? I got headbutted. He headbutted me. On purpose, right? Yes. Not an accidental headbutt. That's what kind of make me say, okay, I understand. This is a whole different... [51:39] atmosphere. It's not the same amateur and the pros and [51:43] A lot of guys from the Amateurs don't [51:45] adjust to the pros as well as i did so [51:50] Mmm. Well, it's all about styles, right? Like there's some guys who have styles that are just much better for point fighting and Nah, it's actually, um, you got to develop a lot of things like, um, punch placement, like [52:04] Punching hard. [52:05] it's really a real thing in the pros like you gotta have something to [52:09] make somebody respect you. That's why when I hear people say like, [52:12] I got pillow hands, I'm like, [52:15] Y'all clearly must not be watching. Who's saying that? It'd be a lot of people. They say I got pillow hands. No, you just fight smart. Yeah. I don't understand it because it's like if I had pillow hands, right? [52:26] Thank you. [52:27] A lot of guys don't just go in there and just knock me out like... [52:30] If I'm fighting somebody with pillow hands, I'm just going to put my... [52:34] my shield up and just swing for the fences because they can't hurt me. Like, I don't understand why nobody won't do that if I got pillow hands. You don't have pillow hands. It's nonsense talk. What you have is a boxing intelligence where you know when to hit full blast and when to just touch them up and crack them a little bit. And the accumulation of blows, the frustration, the mental confusion that a fighter gets when they can't hit you and you can hit them.

[53:04] start ramping it up and then you start tuning them up yeah i mean it's people that the people that are saying that just don't understand what you're doing yeah for sure what you're doing is just perfect you're fighting intelligent yeah and that's what i love i love watching the guy just outbox the fuck out of somebody i love it yeah like i said that that like you were doing this like half speed jab and then from right there and you could tell tio was like jesus christ you could [53:34] It was so fast, but that accumulation of blows over time and his corner. It was crazy. Did you listen to the fight? Like did you go back and watch it? Yeah, I went back and watched it. His corner's like, you got to hit him. Like what? It's so crazy though because like what I see with his corner is like. [53:52] He been doing this. [53:54] Like his dad been getting in the ring and giving him them type of instructions. But T.O. has been always so good to wear... [54:02] The instructions he's giving them really does not matter because he's... [54:06] in control, he's winning these fights, he's doing what he's supposed to do. [54:10] But that night he did need a real coach. He needed something better than that. Yeah. Well, not that his dad's not a real coach, but he needed some tactical advice. He needed some instruction on what this guy's doing to you and you got to switch it up entirely. You got to do something that confuses him. He's used to like something different. [54:29] That's why he went in there and said like, [54:31] Where's your power, bro? [54:34] He's used to T.O.'s power showing up and the amazing things that T.O. does in the boxing ring. He's used to that.

[54:43] Whenever you're going against somebody who's [54:46] on a different level also, you got to, [54:49] be well prepared within like a game plan yeah all that kind of stuff and i didn't see no game plan did you did you know anybody that was his camp or ask anybody after the fight like what was his game plan [55:01] What did he think was going to be different? Nah, I didn't, actually. I just... I'd be interested to know that. Yeah, I do too, but... [55:09] I did run into him after the fight. I ran into Teal in the back. Was it cool? Yeah, it was cool. It was actually a good conversation. [55:17] I felt bad that he was by himself. His manager kind of cleaned it up. But during the moment that I see him, [55:23] in the back [55:24] He was by himself, so... [55:26] I didn't like that. I didn't like that. No, that's a bummer. Yeah, but I mean they said they was with him all night So respect to them. So maybe he just you just caught him in a moment when he was alone. Yeah, that's the last thing once he's a dude gets abandoned after a loss like oh my god, and then you got to go back to camp with those assholes. I don't even like how to Sport is kind of treating him now like everybody acts like he just is a [55:50] Terrible fighter, but oh, that's crazy. I don't understand it when you got to give him respect like this do actually stepped up and for the guy that I [55:58] Nobody else wants to fight. So exactly he did it. He got in the ring. Yeah, he laid it on the line. It didn't go his way, but he did. He tried. The thing is, I don't know if that guy is ever going to separate from his father. You know, I don't know if that guy was going to bring in another world class trainer that maybe would be able to recognize some things that he's doing that he can prove upon. You know, it's so crazy.

[56:20] During the fight? [56:22] He had a coach in his corner. [56:23] And I know the coach, he's from Florida, I want to say. [56:27] His coach was telling him some good advice. [56:31] I don't think he heard him or was listening to him, but he was telling him some good advice. Really? Yeah. I don't want to say what the advice is. [56:39] Because I got future opponents. I got to make sure. Well, someone can go back and listen. Yeah. I can't tell what the advice was, but he was giving him some good advice. Interesting. [56:49] Yeah, it's hard. Those father-son teams, there's always... [56:53] There's a lot of conflict with those. [56:56] Yeah, because I done watched it over the years. I feel like... [56:59] Dads like stay on top of their... [57:02] fighter and they like... [57:04] They make it... [57:07] They make it less fun. [57:09] And I feel like... [57:10] That's why I think my granddad is one of the best coaches because... [57:13] He allowed me to love the sport of boxing myself. [57:17] When I had my football games and my Pop Warner games... [57:20] He... [57:21] Came to my game. [57:23] Watch them cheer, don't know what's supporting me. [57:26] But... [57:27] Soon as I love it. [57:29] I'm on the field crying. I'm like, oh. He comes up to me. He say, [57:35] In boxing... [57:37] You only could lose because of yourself. [57:41] And I'm looking, I'm like... [57:43] What do you mean by... [57:44] I'm like, oh, that is true. Because you're the one in a boxing ring doing the boxing thing.

[57:51] um [57:52] When I lost that football game, [57:54] he was basically trying to say it was my coach's fault. [57:59] So, like, he just allowed me to choose boxing, though. Like, he... [58:02] He always supported me when I did other things, but he kind of like... [58:06] He ain't just stay on top of me, like, hound me with it. Right. He just took me to the gym, man. [58:12] Well, you got to let a young man become his own man. Yeah. He allowed me to choose. And I think... [58:16] fathers in the sport don't allow [58:20] they sons to choose it too. Like they're choosing it for them. Right. And a lot of them are overbearing in the corner. It becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah. And they kind of be... [58:32] Coaches should listen to what I'm about to say. Their father coaches... [58:36] There has to be a difference between. [58:40] father and a coach and [58:43] So when you're coaching your son, you have to be a coach in the boxing ring. [58:47] instead of the father, because when you're the father, [58:50] they're going to reciprocate things wrong. And I feel like... [58:54] Um... [58:54] When coaches... [58:56] When you coaching [58:58] They can hear you a lot better. [59:00] This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments.

[59:30] You can get a custom system and set it up in one afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an exclusive discount. Right now, you can get 50% off your new system by visiting SimpliSafe.com slash Rogan. That's half off at SimpliSafe.com slash Rogan. [1:00:00] Like SimpliSafe. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your dad on Father's Day? [1:00:08] The Beard and Dome Bundle from Manscaped is a really solid option. I've been using their Dome Shaver for a while now, and the thing I like about it is how easy it makes everything. You don't have to think about it. It just glides over your head, gets everything clean, no weird patches, no going over the same spot ten times. Honestly, it's so much better than anything. [1:00:28] any of the other brands I've tried. And then there's the Beard Hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20 different length settings that's built right in. So if you want to get your dad something he'll actually use, the Beard and Dome bundle for Manscaped is an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGAN15 at manscaped.com. Yeah. Yeah. [1:00:58] of the father and the son where the father wants his son to listen to him. Listen to me. I'm your father. You go out. You're gonna do this. You know, fuck off me. Yeah, fuck off me, dad. You doing more harm to your son than

[1:01:09] Yeah. Actually doing good for him. Well, especially not giving him technical advice. Yeah. Like that is where he needed real technical advice. Yeah. Because there was a lot of shit you were doing that he just did not have an answer for. He didn't understand. Yeah. He didn't understand. He didn't clean up his bad habits. [1:01:25] That's the thing with these fighters. A lot of them got bad habits and things that they do, and I'm going to expose it, so... [1:01:32] Well, I mean, the environment that you came up in and having a guy like Terrence and having other elite fighters that you train with all the time, that's so important. It's so invaluable. [1:01:43] Because all that shit gets exposed in the gym. [1:01:46] It does. That's where you work on it at. Yeah. That's where you work on it. If you ain't work on it in the gym, on fight night, it's going to be exposed. [1:01:53] There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. How important do you think an amateur career is? Do you think a guy like Lomachenko maybe would have been an even better boxer if he didn't have so many amateur fights and went into the pros at an earlier age? [1:02:10] I think... [1:02:12] Amateur career is important because you got to have the experience. [1:02:17] But I done seen different to where like, [1:02:21] Gaza developed... [1:02:22] a lot more in the gym. Like, I done seen guys... [1:02:25] Stay in the gym not go to tournaments and [1:02:27] And they'll get better and better. And then out of nowhere, they'll go to one tournament. And then you'll be like, who the fuck is this guy? [1:02:34] Where did he come from? How did he get so good? Yeah. [1:02:38] I think developing in a gym is the biggest thing. Who you sparring?

[1:02:43] who you training with, [1:02:45] All of that stuff really matters the most. [1:02:47] The amateur experience is cool. Like, oh, Lomachenko, but... [1:02:51] If Lemachenko had different things around him in the gym, I feel like he probably would have been a... [1:02:55] better fighter. He's already good. With Lomachenko, it's so crazy because he really should have been fighting at 126. I mean, he really was never a 140-pound fighter. Yes. He's a small guy. Yeah, I don't understand that. [1:03:08] I didn't understand that because I think it kind of tarnished [1:03:11] his career in a way to where like the way people look at him. [1:03:15] People don't look at him the same as they should because he was really, really good. [1:03:20] But. [1:03:22] He was at a weight class that he really wasn't supposed to be at, so... [1:03:25] Of course you're gonna have like [1:03:28] Harder time with them bigger guys, right? Like T.O. Yeah, I tell yeah, that was a perfect example. Teal was huge in that fight Yeah, he looks so much bigger than Lomachenko and just so dangerous that it like fuck Lomachenko strategy up Because you know you got missiles coming at you from a giant dude. I mean T.O. Stacked. Yeah, and so You got to think like for those guys, I guess it's just about chasing the multiple world titles and the bigger money at the higher weight classes and [1:03:55] Yeah, that's what... With Lomachenko, though, he act like he wasn't really... [1:03:59] like super money hungry so i never really understood seem like he's maybe yeah you're right about that he was chasing undisputed [1:04:06] Yeah, undisputed in world titles. I feel like he got robbed in the Devin Haney fight, though. Do you think that? To this day, yeah, I do think. I scored the fight for Limechenko. Yeah, I did too. I watched it three times in a row because I was like, what am I getting wrong here? Am I getting this wrong before I start talking about it? Yeah.

[1:04:25] And I was like, no, no, Lomachenko should have won. Yeah, I thought Lomachenko won. That was one of those where I was like, ooh. And I think that fight fucked with Devin Haney's head a little bit. [1:04:34] Like was that makes you feel like shit when you win a fight and everybody thinks that you lost the fight and you got like then you have to carry that around with you everywhere. And we're like, Lomacheco beat you. You're like, no, he didn't. Yeah, it's a mental battle. Yeah, it's like a battle. And then you got to get it back. I think in that fight, he really wasn't even fighting the best version of Devin because Devin was fighting at a weight class. He really shouldn't have been at. [1:04:57] What was that fight at? Was that 135? Yeah. I don't know. You think Devin should have been at 140? 140? [1:05:03] At that time, yeah, he should have been at 140. He was too big for 35. Yeah. [1:05:08] it's um it's interesting man that balance of we're all fucked up in mma because mma this [1:05:15] there's too few weight classes. And so there's giant gaps. Yeah. [1:05:19] Like, huge gaps. Like, at 185 to 205. You know, 155 to 170. There's no weight classes in between. I mean, that's nuts. Yeah, that's insane. I agree. I mean, it's guys that's like... [1:05:32] Little fighting bigger guys because... [1:05:35] It ain't enough weight classes for them to be in. So that sounds crazy. It's stupid. And it's the one major complaint that I've had with the UFC for a decade. I was like, we need way more weight classes. And they're like, no, we're going to keep it pure. These are the champs. There's only eight champs. Like, no, that's crazy. I need to start watching the UFC. [1:05:54] Oh, it's fun. There's one this weekend in Vegas if you're around. I'm going to watch some of it. It's a good one. I'm going to watch it because I'm...

[1:06:01] I'm like lost. I'm not really... [1:06:04] in tune with like a lot of the UFC guys and the UFC people be kind of mad at me when I say boxing is better. [1:06:10] But it's my sport. Of course you're going to think it's better. It's what your life is based around. For sure. Of course. And if you talk to Max Holloway, he's going to say MMA is better. Exactly. [1:06:20] And they got good explanations. Like, I understand what they saying. Yeah. You could do... [1:06:25] It's more like skills you got to learn in MMA, but... [1:06:29] For me, I just feel like boxing like that. [1:06:31] skill level and a talent for me I like. [1:06:34] better well there is no question the skill level and the talent when it comes to punching is way better in boxing you see some sloppy shit that people do in mma with boxing but you also have to think they're thinking about takedowns they're thinking about getting kicked they're thinking about their calves getting kicked out from under them their legs getting kicked their body getting so they're messing up their punching everything knees elbows and then there's stuff that you do [1:07:04] Yeah, you know, there's certain positions that you would throw punches in that a guy would just calf kick you and you get hit with one of those like oh Shit, and also your calf is numb and you're not moving good. Your ankle doesn't work. Yeah, it's terrible, but I [1:07:19] That's the beauty of that sport is that it's so diverse, but the beauty of boxing is that it's so concentrated on hand techniques that the boxing techniques in boxing are far superior than what you're going to see in MMA. Yeah.

[1:07:31] You see a few guys in MMA that could make it as pro boxers? [1:07:36] But you don't see your level or – They can't be elite level basically. There's no way you can. Impossible. Impossible. [1:07:45] No, you've been doing it for long enough. Just like you don't see these elite MMA fighters that could compete in jiu jitsu tournaments and win world championships. It's very, very rare. They used to the only way that happens is if they were a world champion in jiu jitsu before they got into MMA and they still have those skills at a very, very high level. Then some of those guys can kind of compete in world class levels. But what would you say is like the best skill in like? [1:08:12] The MMA. Wrestling. Wrestling. I knew it. I already knew it before I asked. Because wrestlers can take everybody down. [1:08:18] And if you get taken down, you're fucked. I want to learn how to race a... [1:08:22] It's a great... Well, Terrence, to show you how. Terrence is like one of the only boxers that I like. If that guy fought in MMA, he could do very well. He would. He would do very well. I watched him wrestle an actual like [1:08:34] USA team wrestler in... [1:08:37] He was kind of good. He can wrestle. Yeah, he was good. He was good. He wasn't getting. He's not lost. Yeah. Yeah, he knows what he's doing. And look, his son just won a state title. Yeah, for sure. He's the truth. [1:08:48] Yeah. I want to learn how to wrestle though. It's a good thing to know. [1:08:51] It's a good thing because it's a humbling thing. I feel like they're the strongest people. Oh, yeah. I feel like when they come to strength, like real strength, their bodies are stronger than most people.

[1:09:03] Oh, it's a different thing. When they get a hold of you, you feel like a child. You just get ragdolled. You're like, this is embarrassing. That's the most important skill, I feel. [1:09:13] Every fight starts standing up. [1:09:15] You know every round starts standing up, you know at the beginning of the round you're standing up again. So that guy's got to take you down again and in that [1:09:23] It's time to catch somebody. Yeah, that's when you can catch someone. Yeah, I figured that. Look, there's an elite... [1:09:29] Fighters that aren't great wrestlers in MMA like Alex Pereira who's a two-division world champion. Yeah, but he's just a Destructive kickboxer. Yeah, he's such a terrifying kick. What is John Jones? John Jones a wrestler. He a wrestler? Well, he's an everything fighter he could do everything for him, but I [1:09:46] He started out his career as a wrestler. [1:09:49] I like him. Oh, he's the best ever. Yeah, I like him. The best ever. He's the best ever because he's the smartest of all of them. I mean, that guy studies. That's why I like him. That's exactly why I like him. I've seen a video of him saying he watches everything from top to bottom. He'll watch interviews. He's going to watch every single thing until he finds a weakness. Oh, yeah. That's why I like him. Yeah, he gets inside their head. He knows every tendency they do. He sets traps. He does everything. It's funny. [1:10:19] love to death is a great friend of mine when he fought John Jones they were talking before the fight about tendencies and Daniel's like oh I know what you think I'm gonna do you think I'm gonna lean towards the right you're gonna kick me in the head [1:10:31] And John did exactly that in the fight. It was so crazy when he landed it. Like, I love both of those guys, but Daniel's a close friend. And so when he landed that head kick, I was like, no! You know, and I'm doing commentary, so I've got to, like, I've got to be balanced. And, you know, I do love both of those guys. But I was like, damn, he did exactly what he said he was going to do. You said it on the commentary? No, I didn't say it on the commentary. I don't want to call it out there.

[1:11:01] They were talking shit to each other. And one of the things that you have some tendencies, Daniel, and I'm going to exploit those tendencies. And it's like, oh, you mean how I dip to the right? And he did exactly that. He caught him with that head kick. I was like, no. Oh. Wow. [1:11:18] Look, that's the GOAT. That's the guy, man. He's the guy. He's the guy who always figures out a way to win. He figures it out. I heard it was somebody that he was supposed to fight, though, that wanted to fight him. [1:11:29] It was like somebody really good. Oh, Tom Aspinall? Yeah, that's what I heard. [1:11:33] See, the thing with that is John is at the stage of his career where he's like, I want to fight legends and I want to fight fights that are like big fights against big names that matter. Tom Aspinall carried a high risk. He wasn't a very well-known fighter even though he's the heavyweight champion. And he was really the heavyweight champion because John resigned the title. So he was the interim heavyweight champion. So they had like an interim title. And John was the undisputed heavyweight champion. [1:12:03] supposed to fight and they they didn't make that happen but now you know after that fight john is still trying to figure out if he's going to fight again if he's going to fight again maybe he will fight because there's a big white house card [1:12:16] I heard about that. Yeah. And the White House card is a big one. And if that happens... [1:12:22] that it won't be Aspinall probably because Aspinall just went through eye surgery. [1:12:27] Yeah. Two different eye surgeries. He got poked in the eyes in his fight. Aren't you, like, involved in the UFC? Yeah.

[1:12:33] Yeah, I'm the commentator. I'm one of the commentators. So are you going to be doing like Zufa boxing too? No, no, no, no. No, that's Kellerman, Andre Ward. They do a great job over there. I'll definitely watch some of those fights though. [1:12:48] I think it's interesting. Look, I think it's good to have more organizations that are competing to get the fighters because then the fighters will get more money. Money, yes. And I think – [1:12:58] MMA could use that too. Unfortunately, the UFC is the big name in MMA. And MMA, unlike boxing, is all about the UFC. In boxing, it's all about who's the champ. Nobody gives a shit if it's Golden Boy or Bob Arum. Nobody gives a fuck who the promoter is. It's like who is the fighter that's fighting? Is it Triple G versus Canelo? Who are the fighters? And unfortunately with MMA, it's not that. [1:13:28] fighter, but you fight for the PFL. [1:13:31] Nobody knows. [1:13:32] Nobody knows. Yeah. There's a small audience of hardcore people that pay attention. I've seen somebody fight for the PFL. [1:13:39] Clarissa, huh? Yeah, she fought for the PFL. She's crazy. That lady's wild. She's the best. She's wild. She's the best. She's the best. There's nobody better. I mean, she's the heavyweight champ now. It's crazy. [1:13:51] I just wish she was kind of smaller so like some of the smaller girls who really think that they can be her. Right. Can see like... [1:14:01] There's levels. Man. Yeah. She is the GOAT. She is the GOAT, but she's not getting – I mean, as much as the love that she does get, she's not getting what she deserves. And it's just because there's just not a lot of competition.

[1:14:13] I don't understand it. I don't understand it. It's just two Olympic gold medals. I know. Undisputed several times in the sport. I know. [1:14:21] I just don't get it. Well, it's just women's boxing does not have the same level of respect and appreciation that men's boxing does, unfortunately. Well, Clarissa, I respect and appreciate you, and you are my goal. Yeah, I do as well. This episode is brought to you by Dodge. The new Dodge Charger scat pack is built for people who still believe driving should be exciting. You want to talk about performance? [1:14:51] No mercy, 550 horsepower, 0 to 60 in just 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 177 miles an hour. Woo! Unlike vehicles that make you choose between traction and attitude, the Dodge Charger Scat Pack comes with standard all-wheel drive [1:15:21] Available in both two-door and four-door models, the new Charger Scat Pack. It's loud, it's fast, it's powerful, and unapologetically Dodge. Learn more at Dodge.com. Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. [1:15:41] This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew, the number one brand for better sex. Blue Chew just dropped something crazy. Blue Chew Gold. Blue Chew has made it easy for 5 million men to get hard, but now they've made it easier to get horny too. Blue Chew Gold gets your brain and body on the same page fast. Other options just help blood flow, but Gold combines

[1:16:11] and two, boost arousal and intimacy. So for a good time, go to BlueChew.com. And we've got a special deal for our listeners right now. When you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third free with promo code ROGAN. You also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. Blue Chew is number one for a reason. [1:16:41] I've had her on. She's awesome. I've had her on the podcast. I'm a big fan of her. And I'm just the only one that had the courage to fight in MMA. I mean, that was crazy. She's tough. And she really did like not bad, but she was fighting against lesser competition. So yeah, but she definitely was like, you could tell she was charming. She would, she had to learn the grappling from a beginner's perspective. She was breaking out of them like chill clothes. [1:17:11] At that high a level, as elite a level as she is. But I think she's rightly just concentrating on boxing because I think she realizes that to be a world champion in MMA, you kind of have to abandon boxing. Yeah, for sure. And it would be a long journey. And she'd probably have to absorb a couple more losses. [1:17:32] It ain't really worth it. Fuck these girls up in boxing. And I know she don't like losing. No, not at all. No. She's fun. She's a fun fighter to watch, though. If anybody can get people to pay attention to women's boxing, it's Claressa. Yes, because she's exciting. I don't see it. That's why I don't understand. I don't get it. I don't get it. She deserves all her flowers. She's the true fan. I've never seen nobody...

[1:18:00] No female as good as her ever in my life. No, she's probably the greatest of all time. I think everybody would agree. You know, you've had a few great fighters over the years that have been female fighters, but she's the real standout. Yeah. Yeah. No question. It's just, unfortunately, that sport, I mean, there's not a lot of women out there that want to get punched in the face. If you had a room full of 1,000 women, there might be like one or two of like, I'll try that. You know what I mean? No, I think it's some solid female fighters in the sport of boxing. Oh, there are. [1:18:30] There are, but not in comparison to the numbers in men. Men's boxing is just – a lot of kids grow up. They want to be a boxer. Yeah, for sure. Not a lot of women are like – [1:18:42] Let me put the doll down and fuck some chick up. [1:18:45] That's an unusual mindset. Yeah, it is. [1:18:51] You know, it is what it is. [1:18:54] We're fortunate to be able to have her, though. Because if there's anybody that's going to elevate the sport and bring in new fighters, it's going to be someone who is really the only person in the sport that gets a tremendous amount of attention as a woman. Yeah. She done became a superstar. Yeah. It's definitely a... [1:19:11] interesting seeing her [1:19:13] And like them big arenas and having all the people walk out with her. It's amazing to see. So I'm enjoying her process and I'm glad that I'm here to witness it. Yeah, me too. [1:19:24] Yeah. I mean, but... [1:19:26] Other than her, in the past, there haven't been enough...

[1:19:30] like women that have like really, you know, Christy Martin, Leila Ali. [1:19:36] and there's like a few that like a wolf a wolf was a beast yeah i like her she was one of the few that could flatline a chick with one shot too like her she was the truth oh yeah man and a great trainer too yeah when she was training kirkland yeah bro they they showed those videos of what she was putting him through and you know when he fought canelo he didn't have her in his corner i was just about to say the fights that he lost he kind of did not have her exactly and the fight [1:20:06] She put him through some brutal shit, but those were the fights that he was ultra prepared. [1:20:12] I think that's the... [1:20:14] People don't realize, I feel like the best... [1:20:17] coaches in the sport of boxing are the people that kind of box i bet yeah like robert garcia i think he's the truth as a coach sure [1:20:26] BOMACK. BOMACK, another fighter. [1:20:30] Buddy McGirt. Buddy McGirt. Yeah. Oh, he was a great fighter. Yeah. I just feel like the coaches that's been in there is kind of right. They know. Sure. Yeah. I think it helps a lot. I mean, there's a few guys, like Emmanuel Stewart. Did he have an amateur background? Yeah. [1:20:45] I think so. Yeah. I'm not sure. I think so, though. I think so. Emmanuel just had a brilliant mind for the sport. Yeah, I like the way he talked, too. I'll be watching some of his old videos. Yeah. He actually... It was something that I was doing for this fight, but I watched a video of him, and he said...

[1:21:04] fighters... [1:21:06] over-trained, like they're over-trained. [1:21:08] And I seen it, he started explaining the reasons why you know that they overtraining. And I seen it, I started cutting back on some of the things that I'm doing. I'm like, man, I don't want to overtrain. [1:21:20] Don't come out at my best. Amateur boxing career. He compiled a record of 94 wins, three losses in the amateur, including winning the 1963 National Golden Gloves Tournament in the Bantamweight Division. Wow, Bantamweight. That's crazy. I mean, he was small. That's crazy. [1:21:37] But man, what he did with the cronk gym, he also had this gym like cranked up. He made it like 98 degrees in there all the time. So everybody was like training in the heat. [1:21:47] He had a lot of boxers that was like top level boxers in there. So they was pushing each other to get better. So that's the Chico right there. [1:21:56] Oh, it is the cheat code, right? Iron sharpens iron. Yep. [1:21:59] Yeah, you can't be the best boxer in your gym and have everybody else that's way below you and really get to that world-class level. No, impossible. Impossible. [1:22:07] It's impossible. You got to bring in guys that's [1:22:10] on a high level and [1:22:12] Honestly, for me, [1:22:15] I keep like the young kids that's like [1:22:18] up and coming. Like, my little cousin, he's a great boxer, and [1:22:22] He's up and coming, and I just was in the gym with him yesterday, and... [1:22:25] Play sparring with him. I keep a lot of good boxers around me. [1:22:30] A lot of good boxers. There's another kid, Emmanuel Chance. He's like 19 years old.

[1:22:35] Like they are so skillful right now. [1:22:38] To where like when I'm around them, I'm still picking up things from them, man. [1:22:42] They probably don't even know it, but I'm definitely... [1:22:45] I got my notepad out everywhere I go. [1:22:49] Well, it's so important, right? Like mentally it's locked in here. [1:22:53] I'm watching this. So everybody does everything different. Yeah, you know, and you just pick up little things here and there from what they do and start incorporating that. Yep. People don't know right before the fight with Tio. [1:23:06] It was, I'm going to tell you a fight that I was watching. [1:23:09] Okay. I'm going to give out a little secret. [1:23:12] It was a... [1:23:15] Eight-year-old kid, Tremaine Williams. He fought a guy named Dusty Harrison. [1:23:20] And like they literally eight years old. But I like the way Tremaine was fighting in that fight. He was using his jab and. [1:23:27] Um... [1:23:28] He was the shorter fighter, but he was keeping his range and distance. And I was literally watching an eight-year-old kid fight right before the biggest fight of my life. That's amazing. And you were studying it. Wow. I swear. That's great. [1:23:43] That's such a great mindset. Yeah. I mean, that's how you really grow and learn. You can absorb something from everybody. Yeah, you can learn from anywhere. I was watching an interview with you once where you were talking about Terrence, and you said you really learn more watching Terrence. Than being in there. Yeah. [1:24:01] I still feel that way. Like, I feel like... [1:24:04] I learn more from like seeing the things he's doing than like,

[1:24:08] Being in the ring with him. Now, when we in the ring, it's always chest light. [1:24:12] We haven't test matches, but... [1:24:14] When I'm watching, I can see some of the things he's doing, and I'm like, damn. [1:24:19] this dude is just different like i knew before the spence fight what was happening i knew before the canela fight what was happening like even i was in the locker room i'm in the locker room i'm looking at him [1:24:32] Call my Batman. I'm like, yo, put me some more money in. I know what time it is. No lie, though. [1:24:40] But watching him in the gym... [1:24:43] You got to see hard training sessions. Yeah. You got to see when he looked great. You got to see bad days in the gym. Yep. You got to see how he recovered, how he came back. Yep. [1:24:54] Um... [1:24:56] Like I said, he's one of the most competitive human beings I've ever met, so... [1:25:00] I do get to see all of it. Like, I get to see Go Home with Hillman. [1:25:05] Okay, let me see how he thinking about this. He'll go back and watch the sparring and when he watching it. Oh my god. [1:25:11] He's adjusting. His brain is just adjusting to the sparring that he just watched. And then we'll go in the gym the next day. And now he's just doing things. And pew, pew, pew. [1:25:22] Everything is just on point. So do you do that? Do you watch your sparring sessions? I learned that from him. [1:25:27] Yeah. I used to really never used to do that, but I had seen him. Um, [1:25:32] I forget what sparring session he was watching. I want to say on his iPad. [1:25:37] And he was watching it. [1:25:38] And then I seen a spider the next time, and I'm like, ooh, we look like.

[1:25:42] a million bucks like the adjustments that he made was just um insane so [1:25:47] I started doing the same thing. I'm like... [1:25:49] If I have a day I don't like. [1:25:51] I go home. Why did I have this day? [1:25:54] Oh my God, I keep doing that. Why do I keep doing that? Okay, I'm not doing that no more. [1:26:00] Oh, I can hit him with this. I see that shot is open. Okay, now I'm going to hit him with this shot. [1:26:05] I think that helps me tremendously. That makes sense. Like watching yourself as an observer, the way you would watch an opponent. Yeah. [1:26:14] Yeah. [1:26:15] You got to see what you do good and like what you do bad. Yeah. And correct the things that you do bad. Instead of just remembering it from the training. Yep. [1:26:25] watching it yeah because i have like a bad habit sometimes when i'm like in a boxing gym [1:26:31] I like... [1:26:32] fight. [1:26:33] Thank you. [1:26:33] I don't have like... I don't know why I would get in there. Sometimes I just turn into a fighter... [1:26:39] Instead of realizing that I'm a boxer. Right. And then sometimes I get hit with shots and I'm like, oh, why am I getting hit with that shot? [1:26:47] I'm like, I know my mental, my brain was already locked in on fighting. [1:26:51] instead of being locked in on boxing. [1:26:53] They need to fight. Explain to people what is the difference between your mentality fighting and [1:26:59] and your mentality as a boxer. [1:27:01] When I'm fighting... [1:27:03] I'm emotional. [1:27:05] And I don't want to be emotional. [1:27:09] But I'm emotional and I'm fighting somebody. I'm trying to like...

[1:27:13] beat them up and I'm having a [1:27:15] contest or who's the [1:27:19] the bigger and stronger guy [1:27:21] When I'm boxing, I'm going to be a little bit. [1:27:23] I'm just on top of my game and it's like... [1:27:25] I'm able to hit you. [1:27:27] And you not able to hit me. [1:27:29] And that's what I do best. So I try to like stick with. [1:27:33] what I do best in. It's going to be a time to fight. So I have that in my arsenal for sure, but [1:27:40] I don't like just doing it for no reason. Do you sometimes feel yourself get an emotional fight and have to pull it back? [1:27:47] I never had it happen in a fight, but I done had it happen in the sparts where, like, all right, bro, you... [1:27:54] Your emotions is just taking control instead of like... [1:27:57] You're just having fun and enjoying what you're doing. [1:28:00] Right. [1:28:02] Yeah, I don't have no moments in the gym for sure. [1:28:04] It's just like a composure thing. [1:28:08] all of a sudden you're now not thinking as much. You're just trying to beat his ass. Take the emotions out of the situation and just be you. Yeah. Be present. [1:28:17] That's really my main thing. I want to be present. [1:28:20] and what I'm doing and not [1:28:22] moving off of like feelings. Right. [1:28:25] Right. That probably fucks up a lot of fighters, don't it? Yeah, for sure. Because so many, especially men, they're so wrapped up in their feelings and their emotions when they're fighting. [1:28:35] Yeah, but fighters don't study they self. I study myself. I gotta... [1:28:40] check in with myself and see like what am I doing wrong and what am I doing right and

[1:28:45] I correct it. [1:28:46] You think that's rare? [1:28:48] Yeah, I think that's a rare attribute because fighters depend on their coaches. [1:28:53] They depend on their coaches to do everything. And I do. I depend on my grandfather. I don't know. [1:28:58] when I need him but [1:29:00] I know that I'm the fighter that's in there. [1:29:03] I'm not trying to just depend on them. I want to depend on myself also. [1:29:07] So, [1:29:09] Like, do you try to get the other guys in the gym to follow your footsteps and watch footage? You tell them, like help them out with that? [1:29:27] tune in with theyself and do the same similar things. Watch yourself, see what you're doing wrong, and try to correct it. But they younger, so... [1:29:35] As time go on, they will pick up on it, but I can't rush how I feel and my beliefs on them right now. [1:29:42] Well, the best thing you could do is lead by example. Always. That's my main thing. If you do all the hard work and they'll see your success, when they have harder moments, they'll go, okay, what do I need to adjust? [1:29:56] Let me follow Shakur. Yeah. Well, let me see what... [1:29:59] the champ is doing. Yeah, that's the goal. That's my main goal because, like I said, I ain't going to be boxing forever. So, once I'm done, I'm going to sit back and, [1:30:09] I'm going to help them out. [1:30:10] Do you plan on coaching when you're done? [1:30:13] I probably don't coach.

[1:30:15] Just help out in the gym? Just call me a secret weapon. [1:30:20] Call me a secret weapon. I'll be that guy. Do you already think about what you're going to do when you retire? [1:30:27] Because boxing is a sport where when you retire, you still have so much life ahead of you. Man, that's the truth. But – [1:30:35] I've been trying to like... [1:30:36] figure it out [1:30:38] Because I know it's going to be within boxing. [1:30:41] But whatever I do, I'm going to do to the best of my ability. [1:30:44] I'm gonna want to like... [1:30:47] Make tons of money for what I'm doing. [1:30:49] Um... [1:30:51] If I'm a secret weapon, shit, I might make money just being a secret weapon. So we'll see. Right. Just someone bringing into camp. I'm the right guy for it. [1:31:01] I got all the IQ. I watch too much boxing. My life is like literally sit down and... [1:31:08] Watch. [1:31:09] TV, watch, iPad, watch. Right. I just live... [1:31:14] boxing so [1:31:15] I think that'll be kind of easy, but I just see myself like taking over the world. In what way? I don't know. Like, I can't tell you. Like, I don't know. Like, my brain kind of like different. Like, I don't feel like. [1:31:29] I know for a fact I'm not going to be boxing for long. I don't plan on... [1:31:34] getting in the ring, doing the rest, and doing all that forever. [1:31:39] When I take over the world, it's going to be more so like me just locking in and using the same focus that I got for boxing.

[1:31:46] into whatever else that I'm doing there. [1:31:50] take over like whatever I do I want to be the best and so you don't even have a thought of what it's going to be you'll figure that out when you get out of boxing I journal a lot so I'll be writing things down so I can't tell you exactly what it's going to be but I do know that I'm gonna be somewhere [1:32:07] making millions in a different atmosphere. [1:32:11] Well, that's a great attitude to have. I'm glad you say you journal because this is one of the things that I wanted to bring up. [1:32:17] I wish more boxers were interested in writing books. [1:32:23] Because I think there's some of the things that you're talking about today and some of the things you're talking about in terms of like watching yourself, analyzing yourself, things you've learned, that would be very, very valuable. [1:32:34] If it's written down, but boxing knowledge is all... [1:32:39] word of mouth in the gym. It's all people who know things, tell other people, and they learn things, and you've got to go to these gyms and talk to these people, or you get boxing knowledge from the commentators, like Andre Ward will spit it out, or Roy Jones will spit it out. That is where boxing knowledge gets sort of recorded. But [1:33:01] I think it would be great if boxers could sit down and write just on boxing. Because you think about what a huge sport boxing is. Huge sport. Like one of the pinnacles of sports, of combat sports.

[1:33:18] But yet, [1:33:19] there's not a lot of books written about technique and style and how they learn things and what they learned and why and what changed. And I learned that in this fight, in this fight, this changed. And I adjusted this about my training sessions. And I heard Emmanuel Stewart talk about overtraining. And so I realized maybe I was doing that. [1:33:41] It is one book. [1:33:42] What is it? Andre Wood book. Oh, that's right. You got to read it. But I'm not fully done with it either. But as I read through some of it. [1:33:53] He's giving out some free game. Yeah. It's free game in there that people could go listen to. [1:33:59] and read it and check it out because [1:34:02] It's definitely light. Did he read it for the audio book? [1:34:05] I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know I got the actual book, so I just read it. But I didn't finish it. I won't say that I finished it. But he talks all about those things? It's a lot of things in there that's like free game. Like, okay, ooh, I like that. I might take that. Even if you're training a fighter, like... [1:34:24] You're training the fighter. It's something that I saw that he said that I'm like, okay. [1:34:28] I'm gonna I'm gonna take that if I'm a train fighters narrated by Andre Ward perfect killing the image a champion's journey fighting and forgiveness He's the perfect guy to do that too. Because like I said, he's the guy that did it right, you know, went out on top What's that he helped you understand? Yeah, yeah, well, we need more books like that. I'll read that book I haven't read it, but I'll read it because I think um

[1:34:53] It's just there's so much knowledge out there in certain camps, and it would benefit the entire sport if someone would document some of that stuff. Because some of that stuff is only told to the fighters that this guy's training and only told to the other fighters this guy trains with, and it's not – [1:35:12] It's not out there and it could get lost. You know, like I'm sure there's some shit that Floyd knows that only people around him know that have been told that will be lost. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability. But even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. [1:35:42] Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter connects you with qualified candidates instantly, and their latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list, so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. [1:36:12] You can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot.

[1:36:42] powered by Verizon's 5G network, the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan. It's unlimited wireless designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plans start at just $25 a month. [1:37:12] Code Rogan, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [1:37:16] Yeah, for sure. You know what I'm saying? It's something he told me before this last fight that I took in, and I'm like, ooh. Really? What is that? I'm using that. Um... [1:37:26] It's simple, though. It's very simple. I don't... Like I say, it's hard for me to keep giving out the... Maybe when I retire... Oh, come on, man. What'd he say? Nah, he just told me... [1:37:39] Stretchy. [1:37:40] Stretching. Stretching. How powerful stretching is. [1:37:44] And I just gave up. [1:37:47] It's simple though. People know it, but [1:37:50] Do people do it? [1:37:52] Dude, people don't even do it in MMA. You know how crazy that is where you have to kick and people don't stretch? I was having a conversation with this dude who is a world champion and I was explaining to him a jiu-jitsu position. I was like, this is why it's effective. He's like, oh, I can't get my legs up that high. I go, what are you talking about? [1:38:10] You can, you just have to stretch. He goes, I don't really stretch. I go, that's crazy. Every, no, there's a lot of...

[1:38:16] fighters in sports, that's like [1:38:19] I will see you. [1:38:21] That's crazy. Well, Floyd has always been a guy who did everything right. I mean, if you want to emulate a guy's career, Floyd has been hit hard maybe three times in his whole career. [1:38:35] Maybe. Yeah, he's the truth. Like [1:38:37] 100%. Every time I watch him, I've barely seen anybody like... [1:38:43] that good. [1:38:45] Like for me personally, barely like... [1:38:48] is only a handful of people that I can say like, okay, [1:38:51] They're that good. His brain is working at a different level than a lot of people. [1:38:56] Also, just insanely disciplined, always in shape, always took care of himself, would go out to a club, drink water, and then run home in jeans. In jeans. That's tough. I heard he had on, like, boots. Boots. I never heard of that like that before. I can imagine. I mean, but that's the results, right? You get a guy who's just head and shoulders above everybody he fights. [1:39:26] and movement and knowing where you are and hard to hit but stood right in front of you. That's the crazy thing about Floyd. There's a lot of guys that are hard to hit, but they were like fleet of foot and moving around footwork and Lomachenko style, you know, not Floyd right in front of you. [1:39:42] Right in front of you, you can't hit him. Kind of similar. Crazy. Kind of similar to me. Yes. But I think he's definitely...

[1:39:51] He's a Chico. Yeah. His mental was just too far ahead of everybody else's. Yeah. That's the main thing. Well... [1:39:58] The one fight between guys who retired and came back that I'm still interested in seeing is him and Manny. And I know they're going to do that on Netflix. [1:40:09] I think that's still a high-level fight, though. That's what I love about it. Because I think Manny is still a high-level fighter. [1:40:16] And Floyd, even in these exhibitions that he's been doing, looking good, looks great, man. He looks great in sparring. You see him in sparring like good Lord, man. It doesn't look like he's lost a step. Yeah. Honestly, I don't see many being able to beat. [1:40:33] fooling me with it. Like, I don't see... I... [1:40:36] I think Manny looked solid his last fight with Barrios, but... [1:40:41] I just don't see Floyd losing. I think there's some guys that he could come back [1:40:45] today. [1:40:46] in the sport of boxing and fight. [1:40:48] I think so. Like guys like Barrios? Yeah. Right. I think he would. He would light Barrios up. Yeah. [1:40:55] Yeah, but I mean, there's levels. I mean, no matter what he's lost being 46, they haven't gained that yet. I mean, they were never there in the first place. So if he was here and he's lost this much, they're still here. Yeah. And even though he's not Floyd that fought Canelo or Floyd that fought Ricky Hatton, it's not the same Floyd. It's not that much different. Yeah, he's still so far ahead.

[1:41:25] body up. He's not doing anything stupid. He stays in shape. He eats right. [1:41:30] Yeah. I appreciate Floyd too, cause, um, [1:41:34] That's one of the guys that I never did no business with ever. [1:41:39] And he still kind of helped me. [1:41:40] So I appreciate him, man. [1:41:42] I think he's a real dude. [1:41:44] He got my love and respect [1:41:48] Well, I always say that if you wanted to have a style that you emulate where you want to have a great career, look at that guy. Like really very few times his career ever got hurt. Yeah. Very, very few. You can count them on one hand. Yeah. [1:42:02] You know, where he was in any kind of trouble at all. Yeah, that's my goal. And then in rematches, oh my God. In rematches, he's always just like Maidana. Like Maidana, the first fight was a rough fight. Yeah. Second fight, he looked like a master. I'm not going to lie, though. He's one of the guys that makes me want to like... [1:42:22] Feel the experience of like getting hurt. [1:42:26] Cause like when he for Shane Mosley, [1:42:30] That moment of like he lost his whole balance, everything almost went to his feet, but he stayed up. [1:42:38] And then he fought back harder. I feel like that was like a... [1:42:42] amazing moment of his career. And for me, I want to [1:42:46] Have they experienced like... [1:42:48] Of that moment, I have never got... [1:42:51] hit like crack like that yet in the pros so. [1:42:54] I actually want to experience it. You really want that? Yeah. Really? That's crazy. Because I want to show like... That you can do it. Yeah, like you've got to see. Like I've got more in me to just...

[1:43:04] than just being like, [1:43:06] a good boxer like i'm a good boxer but i'm tough too the mosley fight was probably the fight where he got hurt the most yeah yeah and the most dangerous because it was like i think it was kind of in the middle of the round right yeah yeah i want to feel that experience and that was prime i told andrew ward that he told me he's like man why why would you why would you want to but i'm like i don't understand why but i definitely do who do you think out there could do that [1:43:32] I don't think nobody. [1:43:35] I don't think they're like mentally on the level to even... [1:43:40] I think I'm just too far ahead. But that's the problem of being too far ahead is that it's going to be hard for you to get fights. Yeah. What are they talking about right now? Is there anybody that they're talking about right now for you? [1:43:53] Nah, I haven't really heard none from a business standpoint since my last fight, so... [1:43:59] The problem is the last fight was too good. You know, like you would have probably got some offers before that fight. But after that fight, everybody's like, hold on. [1:44:09] I don't know if I want that to happen to me. Yeah, I have no clue who I'll be fighting next. Who do you have your sights on? Like, if you could make the decision, who do you think is interesting right now? If I could make a decision, interest would interest me, maybe. [1:44:26] Crazy to say. [1:44:29] Um... [1:44:30] I may go back to 35 and get that ring belt. [1:44:33] Really? I may. We'll see though. Yeah? I can't promise that I will, but I may. What makes that more interesting to you?

[1:44:41] Um... [1:44:43] I like the ring belt. Like, I like the ring magazine belt. I don't know what it is about it. It's a classic belt. I always liked it. But for me to have... [1:44:53] A ring belt at 1.30. And then I had... [1:44:56] I got a ring belt right now at 140. [1:44:59] But I never had a ring belt at 35. And it's like, should I just go? [1:45:04] Get that ring belt just to... [1:45:07] So it's the belt, not even the opponent. [1:45:11] I know the opponent that I would have to fight to get it. I'm hearing it's Raymond Moritaya. [1:45:16] He's a good fighter. He just beat Andy Cruz. [1:45:19] Nah, this ain't the opponent. It's more so just to have the ring belt. That's crazy. Like you're at a position where you're not even thinking about opponents. You're thinking about belts you'd like to acquire. [1:45:31] For sure. That's pretty cool though. I mean that's a beautiful place to be in. Yeah. [1:45:37] That's beautiful. But what about opponents? Is there any opponents? Like if you had like if no one could say no and you were like, I'm going to orchestrate my career, who would you like to fight? [1:45:49] If it was no opponents... [1:45:53] I mean... [1:45:55] And I was orchestrating, I probably... [1:45:58] Because the fight that I would think that would generate the most amount of interest at 135 would be Tank. Now, I know Tank's got some legal issues now, and I don't know what his status is currently. [1:46:11] But –

[1:46:12] when it terms of big names. [1:46:15] Tank is the big name at 35%. [1:46:17] Yeah, um... [1:46:19] I would love for it to happen, but... [1:46:23] Um... [1:46:24] The way that he went on like... [1:46:27] Social media and kind of like bashed me in a way to where it was like he made it seem like I need... [1:46:33] I need him. [1:46:34] and on [1:46:36] I just feel disrespected about it because at the end of the day, I'm a grown man. I make my own money. I'm living a... [1:46:42] spectacular life. [1:46:45] I don't need nobody. [1:46:47] If he feels as though I need him and if it's that kind of [1:46:50] Stuffed and it's like whatever. I'm well in need of that fight The thing is like tank had gotten a bunch of those high-profile fights. He KO'd Ryan He's had some big high-profile fights look great. And so for him to say that he's probably you know He's talking shit obviously, but he's like looking at you is like you haven't had before the Lopez fight You haven't had that big breakout fight and [1:47:16] But now you have. [1:47:18] Now you have, and it was more spectacular than you could mean. If you wanted to write out a perfect result on paper against a world champion like Tiafemo, that would be the fight, you would say. Yeah. [1:47:30] If I had to think of like a big fight for you, if I was the guy with the magic wand, that would be the fight that I would set up. I would love the fight. [1:47:38] I would love for that fight to happen. [1:47:41] Ooh, that would be a big fight. Especially after you just beat Lopez.

[1:47:44] That would be a big fight. [1:47:46] I would love for the fight to happen. [1:47:47] That might be the only big fight that I could think of, other than you going up. [1:47:52] But 47, like you said, that's a big jump, man. Yeah, I'll make it, though. I'll make it soon. [1:47:59] Soon, I mean, later than sooner. [1:48:01] Do you think if you did that, you would want – [1:48:04] to prepare and put mass on, or would you just stay at the weight you are and just get accustomed to fighting bigger guys? [1:48:13] If I was to go to 47, I would want to prepare. I would want to... [1:48:19] do it slowly. I wouldn't want to just jump the 147 and [1:48:24] um, [1:48:25] You would want to put on weight, you think? [1:48:27] Yeah, some type of way, yep. Yeah. [1:48:29] 'Cause I'm little late. I can't just jump in the ring at the size that I am. [1:48:34] at 147 pounds and i know guys is going to be a lot bigger right especially when you're talking about ryan being 170 when he gets in the ring he might even be bigger than that he was big and ripped in his last fight he looked fucking great yeah for sure [1:48:48] But it's like – [1:48:53] That's one of those things too is if you do go up, going down gets real hard. Going back – [1:49:00] Like if you go up to 47 – I always say that. I don't understand the reason with that. Because your body gets accustomed to being bigger. For real? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you put on mass, right? So if you put on muscle and you go up to like 147 and so you're walking around at 155, 160, something like that. You drop down to 47. You've got more shoulder muscle, chest muscle, back muscle, leg muscle. If you –

[1:49:25] Stay at that weight and then you got to cut down to 35. You're gonna feel like shit and the example that I always use is Roy So when Roy Jones went up and fought John Ruiz won the heavyweight title then he went back down to light heavyweight He never looked the same because he was 200 pounds solid at a heavyweight. Yeah ripped like muscular 200 pounds for him to lose 25 pounds of weight and go back down to light heavyweight that is fucking hard and [1:49:56] Yeah, I get that. I get that. [1:49:57] I feel like... [1:49:59] when Rory did that, [1:50:00] Rory was like... [1:50:04] I think he must have been trying to set up a big heavyweight fight maybe, or was he just trying to just win a title? [1:50:10] I mean, I think he was just trying to be like the only guy to go from middleweight to win the heavyweight title, which he did. Yeah, I don't understand why he did that. Because you're right. When he fought Tarver, it was like... [1:50:20] I don't know what was happening like. [1:50:23] I didn't really think... [1:50:24] Tyra was as good as Rory. [1:50:27] But Tarver beat Roy. Tarver's a bad motherfucker, though. Tarver's a very good fighter. But to beat Roy? I think Tarver in that fight, first of all, they had fought before, right? They had a real close decision loss, Tarver lost. [1:50:44] Tarver got in his head at the beginning of the fight. So you got any excuses tonight Roy? That was crazy. That was crazy. That was crazy. Like to hear that like right when you're about to fight. Yeah. Any questions for the champion? Any questions for the champion? Got any excuses tonight Roy? Oh my God. Man I don't know. That was one of the wildest things anybody's ever said. That would have turned me up though. Like if he would have said that to me like I'm trying to picture somebody saying that to me right before we fight.

[1:51:11] now i'm gonna want i already want to beat you bad right now i'm gonna want to beat you even better like [1:51:17] Then after the fight, I'm going to get on the mic and what did you say? Did you say something? But when he dropped Roy and knocked him out, I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. [1:51:28] I was worried about him because I know what that does to people when they drop weight. And dropping down from 200 pounds to 175 will really wear your body out. Yeah, so you think it was more so the weight than the skills of Tarva? [1:51:42] I would never say that because I think Tarver has elite skills. I mean, Tarver's elite. I think he's elite. Oh, come on. I think Tarver's an elite fighter. Elite. You don't think he's elite? No, no. I mean, he's had great performances and not as good performances, but I think [1:52:00] In the performance against Roy, he looked elite. [1:52:03] Yeah, he looked good that night. Because he rose to the occasion. I just don't know about elite. Elite low for me personally. [1:52:12] I'm not the biggest Tyron fan, so. Okay. Well, I defer to your championship knowledge. But, I mean, in that fight, you can't say that he didn't look spectacular in that fight against Roy. No, he did. He did. He looked on point. He looked like he was the better fighter at that moment. Yeah. Awkward. Southpaw. When I watched the first fight, I thought Roy was a way better fighter than him. I thought Roy just stood on the ropes for way too long. I don't know why he did that. [1:52:39] Was the first fight before or after he fought Ruiz?

[1:52:44] Um, it was after. Was it after the first fight they had too? Yeah. That probably wore his ass out too. I think, I just think once you go all the way up like that, you should probably stay there. Yeah. Yeah. [1:52:57] I don't know how we went up. I don't want to, you know... [1:53:01] It's hard for a guy in his 30s to put on that kind of muscle. Yeah. And generally you have some help. [1:53:08] Yeah. So generally some Mexican supplements involved. And so the problem is once you have taken that stuff and then you stop taking it because you want to go back to your normal weight, your whole endocrine system gets fucked up. [1:53:38] fighters that gain weight and and have lean muscle and put on that kind of mass yeah generally they're doing it with some kind of supplement some kind of either steroids or something that juices up your endocrine system whether it is peptides yes damn i never heard of this you didn't know nah what come on man you know for real no i didn't know oh come on there's a lot [1:54:08] cheating. Oh, well, in the older days before they were testing? Yeah. Oh, come on, man. Like in the 90s, who knows how many guys were on steroids? Damn, that take away the credit of them guys because I feel like when I watched them guys, they was the truth. They are the truth, but I don't think

[1:54:27] I think – well, let me use what I know for an example. An MMA. MMA. [1:54:32] MMA is a better example. Because in MMA, fucking for sure, I could tell you 100% people were juicing. 100%. Because I knew guys who were juicing. They would tell me what they were on, and everybody was juicing. [1:54:46] So then they started implementing – so then the UFC starts getting sanctioned by athletic commissions and they test day of the fight. The day of the fight test is an intelligence test. It's not a steroids test. It's like were you intelligent enough to cycle off right before the fight with the right kind of steroids so that on the weigh-in day when you get tested, you don't test positive. That's all it is. [1:55:16] working in the camps. That's helping them cheat. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, not so much anymore. This is scary. Because then the UFC, it is scary. [1:55:26] But the thing is, everybody was doing it. And then on top of that, you had an organization like Pride. And I don't know if you're aware of Pride, but Pride was the big organization in Japan. I mean, they were selling out 90,000-seat arenas in Japan for these promotions. They were fucking huge. And everyone was juiced to the tits. I don't know if everybody was, but a lot. I don't think Rampage was. Rampage told me he never took steroids, and I believe him. [1:55:56] were juiced up and I know for a fact they were juiced up because they told me they told me and they also told me like Ensign Inouye who fought for pride told me that on his contract yeah Ensign Inouye

[1:56:10] Yeah, like not related, but same last name. [1:56:15] Ensign – he was a great fighter, a pioneer at MMA. Ensign told me that on his pride contract, it said in all capital letters, we do not test for steroids. [1:56:25] I had a friend of mine in Japan, they encouraged him to take steroids. [1:56:30] See, this scared me because I got to get in a boxing ring and I know that people be cheating. Some people cheat. [1:56:37] I know it's be like low level fighters that you'll go there and you'll be like, [1:56:41] Why do this guy punch way harder than... [1:56:45] A lot of people like. Right. I don't understand it. And it's like, I don't. Well, there's a few fighters in MMA that when steroids started being tested for, they're [1:56:56] body shrunk. [1:56:57] And then their power went away. [1:56:59] Like there was guys that were knocking everybody out and then also they couldn't knock anybody out. It's crazy. I mean, there's so many stories in MMA where you see fighters' physiques just deflate. [1:57:11] Like they're a balloon. They got air let out of it. I feel like I've seen them in boxing though. I see guys, they kind of like get caught with steroids. Mm-hmm. And then they have a fight after that and it's like. They look like shit. Where did the power go? Exactly. You lost all of your power? Yeah. [1:57:25] That's a fact. That's a fact. I get it. That does happen. And then there's also ways that we can't figure out what they're doing yet. I mean, this has happened all throughout sports, right? This was the whole thing with Barry Bonds and the Balco scandal in baseball. They had developed a steroid called the clear. And what the clear was was a steroid that was undetectable. They hadn't figured it out, but eventually they got caught. And so who knows what kind of shit.

[1:57:55] advantage. There's definitely people doing it now, but the way the UFC works now, [1:58:01] The first they brought in USADA now they have a company called drug-free sport that does the same thing and they just show up and Test you you don't get a notification. It's gonna happen next Tuesday So you can take a bunch of shit that clears it out of your system. So they just show up knock on your door Hey, it's time for a test and then you gotta do that's how they should I do the same thing They just show up and yeah, that's how they should your rain blood. Yep, and [1:58:27] Anytime. [1:58:28] Now my last camp they tested me like I [1:58:31] Four or five times. Yeah. God damn. Well... [1:58:35] That's the only way to know. You got to show up randomly and test guys. That's the only way to know. I'm cool with it, though, because I ain't never... [1:58:41] ever really... [1:58:43] did anything when it comes to cheating. But if you go, and this is again not casting any disparaging remarks about Roy, who's one of the greatest of all time, but if you went back to the Ruiz fight, do you think they were testing him? I fucking doubt it. [1:58:57] I fucking doubt it. There was no VADA testing back then. But then you saw that it was in boxing? [1:59:02] No, I don't think so. No, no. I could have sworn they was in boxing. Okay, let's find out. Was the Roy Jones, John Ruiz Jr. fight, did they utilize VADA testing? [1:59:15] I don't think they did. USADA. [1:59:17] Okay, USADA. I don't think they did. [1:59:20] I don't think... [1:59:21] I don't think that, look, that was always a thing about Manny. Like, people always said that about Manny. I heard that, too. Right?

[1:59:29] Only reason why I was believable, though, because I never... You went up eight weight classes. I never seen that in my life. And kept the knockout power. I've never seen that in my life. Right. I never in the history of the sport, you go from one, what, 109 or... Whatever he started at. To 154 and you're just knocking guys out. I know. That's crazy. And his physique, you know? I mean, he looks fantastic at every step of the way. And he also had that dude... [1:59:57] Thank you. [1:59:58] What did it say? It was not held under a modern UFC-style USADA program. There's no record of being part of any independent year-round USADA-VADA scheme. [2:00:08] like we see today. [2:00:09] So they just depending on the athletic commission. Yeah, but again, the athletic commission. It's just fight day. It's an intelligence test. Yeah. I mean, I will show you, show him Alistair Overeem when he fought Brock Lesnar, like at the weigh-in. Now, Alistair Overeem is the greatest example in MMA of a guy who, when he was on the juice, he was unstoppable. Unstoppable. [2:00:39] He looked like a comic book superhero. He was so jacked. And then when they started doing USADA testing, he looked completely different. I mean completely different. He got softer. He still looked good, but he didn't look like Uber Eam. There's an image of him flexing on the scale. Like look at him right there. Come on, son.

[2:01:02] I mean, come on. Look at that girl. Look at Ariane's face. When she's looking at his back, she's like, what the fuck? And that was... [2:01:11] I mean come on man he was a fucking monster he was destroying everybody he was destroying everybody [2:01:19] when he was juiced up. And he started his career as a light heavyweight. So he started his career as a 205-pound guy who's thin and skinny. That's light heavyweight? Yeah, that's light heavyweight. The UFC's weight classes are all fucked up. I know, it's stupid. They have the same names but different weight classes. So, like, welterweight is 170 in the UFC? Yeah. [2:01:38] Yeah, look at him. So that's the difference between how he was when he was juicing versus how he was. Is he the difference? It's crazy, right? Isn't it crazy? It's crazy. So the guy on the right was just he had to move more. He was still very skillful. He's a very skillful kickboxer, very skillful MMA fighter. But... [2:01:59] I mean, when that guy was fully jacked up and juiced, man, he was almost unstoppable. See, that's why I'm... [2:02:07] Thank you. [2:02:08] Man, that's why I don't like that. That's my thing. I do not want to get in the ring with somebody that's cheating. I feel like that's... [2:02:16] But I'm so good to where it's like, even if you are cheating... [2:02:21] You ain't going to hit me. You won't be punching on me. Imagine if you're fighting a guy that's at your level, but he's cheating. Yeah, that's the problem. Yeah, that's the problem. Right now. There's not really anybody in your division that's at that level. That's like really compelling. I mean, other than at 135 tank, but imagine if there's someone.

[2:02:42] that's at your level and you're pretty sure they're cheating. That's got to fuck with your head. [2:02:47] Honestly, I feel like it's some competitive guys. [2:02:49] Um [2:02:51] at these weight classes. They just not know. [2:02:53] But there's some names that's like, okay, even Lamont Roach. Lamont Roach is very good. That fight with Gervonta was crazy because that was a knockdown. [2:03:04] That's a fucking knockdown. He won. He won for sure. The fact that he took a knee and the referee didn't call it a knockdown, that's crazy. Yeah, he won. But... [2:03:14] to say like [2:03:16] I'm just saying it is guys out there for me. Lamont is a great example. It would be big fights and competitive fights. I done sparred Lamont, so I know Lamont is a competitor. He's legit. Yeah. [2:03:25] I mean, a lot of people did not know about him before that fight, but after that fight, I mean... [2:03:31] Look, that sucks, man, because that goes down on his record as a loss. And that's – was it a draw? Draw. Draw. That's right. It was a draw. And – [2:03:38] He won the fight. [2:03:39] He clearly won. He won the fight? Yeah. I thought he won the fight anyway. Yeah, I did too. I did too. But the knockdown, like, you can't say I got shit in my hair and it got in my eyes and that's why I went down. That's crazy. That was very amateurish. It was weird, right? It was amateurish. I didn't... [2:03:55] It was weird. I never saw none like that. [2:03:58] Well, it's like Gervonta just looked like his head wasn't totally there in that fight. [2:04:03] Yeah, maybe. So do you require Vata testing for all your fights? Every fight. And do you have that ability to do that? Yes. So in negotiations, you make sure that everybody's getting tested. I don't play when they come down to the – Good for you. Yeah.

[2:04:16] I do not bleed in. Yeah, good for you, man. Good for you. I mean, we're very fortunate that we have these... [2:04:22] testing bodies like that now available. Yeah. Because, again, like, if they had – who knows what a lot of fighters' legacies would be if they were testing them at every step along the way. Yeah. They'd get caught. [2:04:35] They get caught. Yeah. Yeah. So with MMA, it was the Wild West for a long time. [2:04:40] For a long time. It was the wild, wild west. Everybody was doing all kinds of shit. I wouldn't be able to do that. I would not be able to get in the ring, lose to somebody, and then know they cheated me. [2:04:52] because I don't know how I would react to that. That would be one of the moments I made. [2:04:58] crash out and i don't do crash out things so i might crash out about like ain't no way you just cheated me bro right ain't no way you just cheated me bro well the thing is that with combat sports versus every other sport is your goal is to hurt your opponent yeah and if there's a thing you're doing that's cheating that helps you hurt your opponent that is a different kind of cheating yeah it's not like cheating in baseball like who gives a fuck if you hit another home run i think they [2:05:28] steroids make it more exciting like because the only thing that's exciting about baseball is home runs right yeah that's the number one thing if you got a way that you guys can hit more home runs fucking give it to them what are you it's stupid yeah it's like harmless like it's not really gonna hurt nobody exactly i get it exactly but and boxing is like it's life or death yeah if boxing is real life or death that's why i don't know how like

[2:05:54] I will react. Don't you. Anybody watching this, please don't cheat me. I am not the guy to be cheated. So just understand that. Well, I mean, whenever people are looking for shortcuts and people want to win, there's always going to be someone that's willing to do something that they're not supposed to be doing. That ain't it, though. Like, this is this. Like you said, it's life or death, like life or death. So you could cheat and hit somebody with the wrong shot and then they dead and. [2:06:21] What's the guy that killed somebody? Sabriel Matias. Right. He killed the dude... [2:06:26] And now he just got popped for cheating. So it's like... Oh, he did? Yeah. I didn't know that. What did he get popped for? Yeah. [2:06:32] I don't even know. But he lost recently, right? He lost to that. Yeah, right before the loss, they had popped him for cheating, I want to say. Oh. Dalton Smith. [2:06:40] So he got popped and then he lost the next fight? Yeah, they let him fight. [2:06:48] wow yeah but it's like i wonder if he's the same guy after he got popped that's what i don't know either but because he was killing everybody i mean yeah he actually only killed one guy but yeah but he actually killed somebody but if i'm the family of somebody that he killed and now he comes out as cheating i will be like [2:07:08] Hold up now, bro. Can you see what Matisse got popped for? Yeah. [2:07:11] Um... [2:07:13] That's crazy. He was... [2:07:15] who's the dude who just beat him dude just stopped him yes yeah that was a crazy fight that was crazy they went to war i mean that was not an easy fight for him and

[2:07:27] Matias is a dangerous dude man. Yeah, that was a great performance by Dustin Smith though. Yeah, people don't know back in the day when I was in the junior worlds. I [2:07:36] Me and whom went to the world together. [2:07:38] So, Osterine. Damn. Everybody's on Osterine. Damn. What is it about? I don't even know much about Osterine. What does Osterine do, Jamie? Let's find out what it does. [2:07:48] Osterine selective androgen receptor modulator designed to treat muscle wasting conditions and osteoporosis by promoting muscle growth and bone density without the severe side effects of anabolic steroids. Popular amongst bodybuilders for enhancing muscle mass and fat loss. It's not approved for human consumption by the endocrine. [2:08:10] FDA banned by WADA and linked to side effects like liver toxicity, testosterone suppression, and cardiovascular risks. [2:08:20] So it helps you keep muscle and bone density. [2:08:24] Yeah. [2:08:25] Well, it makes sense that that would be a good supplement for boxers. [2:08:31] What are you showing me here? Before or after? Look at that guy. The one you got your link on? [2:08:37] Jesus. [2:08:38] He looks like he's faking it in the third picture. [2:08:44] But, I mean, you're always going to have certain people that are going to cheat. [2:08:50] I hate it. Are there any, like, world title fights that take place that don't have Vata testing? [2:08:56] Yeah, I think it is. I think people fight without it, but I don't.

[2:09:01] I don't play that. Yeah. I don't play that. [2:09:04] I be thinking, man, I'd have spotted a dude in the gym that was, like, not good one time. [2:09:10] He's not good at all, but I'm sparring. I'm like man. This dude punch harder than everybody. I ever been in the ring with I wonder like dude did that do do he be cheating? [2:09:21] Well, some dudes just have natural God-given power, too. But when you're like fat... [2:09:26] Not kind of like you out of shape. Then you just punch super hard and it's slow, but it's like... [2:09:32] Boom. [2:09:32] Boom. [2:09:34] I be thinking people be cheating. They might be, but they might just have the gift. Yeah, that's true. The thing about boxing is punching power. You can enhance your punching power, but that crazy punching power, that's a gift. You're born with it. Yeah, you're born with it. Like Ernie Shavers type punching power or Deontay. Wilder. Wilder. The greatest example ever. Oh my God. One shot with Teddy Atlas is the best example. He called it the eraser. All the mistakes you made, it doesn't matter. [2:10:04] Yeah, because I sit there and watch Wilder and I'm like, dog, it's some fights that I see him not punch at all until the shot is there. Right. And when the shot is there, he got you. It's over. It's crazy how hard he hits. It's over. I mean, he might be the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight division. I think he is. I think he's like no question. Like, he's probably the hardest puncher that ever... [2:10:27] works. [2:10:28] He's up there. I mean, Ernie Shavers back in the day. Punch harder than Wilder? Wow, they all said Ernie Shavers was the, like, even Ali said nobody hit harder than Ernie Shavers. Wilder.

[2:10:39] I know, I know. The only thing about Wilder, too, is he's not big. He only weighed 209 when he fought Tyson Fury the first time. That right hand he got... Crazy! I don't think nobody could take it. It's crazy. I don't think nobody could take it. I'm not going to lie. I saw Fury take it, but... [2:10:55] You know what he's like? He's like a giant Tommy Hearns. Yeah. That's what it's like. Yeah. Long leverage, just torque, the width of the shoulders, the snap of the punch, just blap. I wish he retired all day. I feel like he... [2:11:11] What else is there to do? Like you done did a lot in the sport. You done made a lot of money. [2:11:15] I just wish like certain guys just like, okay. I know. I know. What am I doing this for now? [2:11:21] Well, he's going to fight Derek Jisora, which is interesting because they're both the same age. They both have 50 fights. They're both kind of in the same – [2:11:30] I like Derek Chisdor. He's a cool dude, too. He seems cool. [2:11:35] I mean, it's a great time for boxing. There's a lot of talent, a lot of very, very compelling matchups. [2:11:41] Are they going to do a BVOL, a better BV rebatch? [2:11:45] Are they going to do a trilogy? I want to see Bivar versus Benavidez. That's the fight. Well, the fight was Benavidez versus Canelo. That never could get made for some reason. [2:11:57] I mean, that dude is just too big for Canelo, though. Like, I see both sides. Like, I love Benavidez, and I'm a fan of him. [2:12:07] So I see the side of like...

[2:12:10] like fight me bro you the guy I'm the guy we number one number one let's fight [2:12:15] But then I see Canelo's side, he's like, man, this dude is... [2:12:18] 200 pounds on a regular. Right. And I'm nowhere near that weight. So it's like... [2:12:24] Why would I fight this guy? Like, I don't think it's fair. Like, that's how he feel himself. Yeah, I understand it. But Canelo went up and fought Bival. But he knew... [2:12:36] He didn't think Buval was going to be him. [2:12:39] You don't think so? Nah. Well. He didn't think. He thought he was going to beat Bivov. After Bivov beat him, you think that killed the chances? Yes. He knew like it was time. Like I cannot fight these guys that are super big. I love watching Benavidez fight. Yeah, he's a truth. He's a mauler. He's a killer. [2:12:55] He is a fucking killer. He did something that helped my hands. He told me to put on the gloves that I be wearing on fight night. [2:13:00] And they held my hand, so I appreciate them too. [2:13:03] Do you do anything to strengthen your hands? Do you do exercises? Yeah, I can't tell everybody. You can't? All right, tell me later. Yeah, I'll tell you later. There's a bunch of different things people do, like buckets of rice is a big one. Oh, yeah, for sure. I do that too. Yeah, moving your hands around in buckets. What is it? Benavidez Targets to meet you, Bival. [2:13:25] Oh, there we go. That's the fight. That's the fight. That's the best versus the best. I think that's one of the best fights to make in the sport of boxing. Well, he's fighting Ramirez at cruiserweight, right? Yeah. And then he's going to drop back down to light heavyweight and fight Bival. I like that. [2:13:39] Yeah. Yeah.

[2:13:40] I want to make the biggest and the best fights happening. Fuck yeah. [2:13:44] Yeah, that's one of the best fights in the sport. [2:13:46] Arthur B.B. is like 40 now. Yeah. He's a truth, though, too. Oh, he's a truth. He was a crusher forever. [2:13:53] He plays too hard. Oh my god. He another one. He just bangs dudes out. He's got a crazy style. Yeah. I mean, [2:14:01] I mean, it's funny when people sparred him, they have these stories. Yeah. Like he hits you and you're like, what just happened? Yeah. I can see it, though. When I watched him fight before. [2:14:11] I'm front row and like, before I like to catch shots on his glove and like, [2:14:16] I could see like how hard he was punching his glove. Like, yeah. Damn. [2:14:22] I don't know how before they've taken that. I know, and he was 39 back then. Yeah. That's what's crazy. It's like we missed his prime. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. We've seen one fight where he fought the... [2:14:35] The overseas guy, uh, Gavard something... [2:14:39] He beat him up. Oh, my God. He beat him up. Well, he was at one point in time, wasn't he like 39-0 with 39 knockouts? [2:14:48] which is just nuts. At that level... [2:14:51] That is just nuts. Punching too hard. It's just nuts that he stopped everybody. And it looks natural, too. It don't look like he's on, like... [2:14:58] No, it's natural. He looks very natural. But didn't he get in trial, caught with something? He got caught with something? [2:15:05] Yeah, put that better be of... [2:15:08] Not bad at BF, man. I feel like...

[2:15:12] I might be wrong. [2:15:15] But I feel like maybe there was a... [2:15:17] Tainted Supplement [2:15:19] Man, come on. I think so. [2:15:23] I might be wrong. If I'm wrong, I apologize. You gotta be wrong. [2:15:30] Atypical. Yeah, this is what it was. [2:15:33] A typical drug test result. Adverse findings may have threatened. Now, what does that mean? What does it say? Look at Conor McGregor. Look at Conor McGregor screaming and yelling. [2:15:43] What does it say? What did he get caught with? [2:15:46] A typical finding is not a violation, requires more testing, better be if underwent those examinations at VADA request. VADA reported negative results from the follow-up test. So what was the positive test? [2:16:00] Hmm. [2:16:02] What does that mean? Yeah, what do that mean? Oh, here it goes. He received atypical findings for human growth hormone. [2:16:09] And 5-D androstanadiol. Both occur naturally in the body. When an atypical finding is received, further testing is required to determine if an athlete naturally produces the substance in his or her body at a greater level than the average or elevated levels, which were signs of anti-doping. Interesting. Okay. So it could just be that he just has naturally high levels of... [2:16:35] of HGH and this 5D androstanadiol.

[2:16:43] So that might be what it is. [2:16:45] Or [2:16:46] could be some sneaky shit. You know? I mean... [2:16:51] Did you ever see the documentary Icarus? [2:16:56] This is a great documentary about the drug scandal in the Olympics in Russia. And so this was – what was this? 2016? [2:17:08] Which was it, Jamie? Was that the Olympics I was at? Yeah. [2:17:12] I was there. And they banned the whole Russian team? Exactly. I thought that was 2020, though. [2:17:18] They banned the Russian team in the follow-up Olympics, I believe, because of the 2016. So this guy, Brian Fogle, did this documentary. It's a crazy documentary. And the documentary was not supposed to be... [2:17:29] 2014 Winter Olympics. 2014 Winter Olympics. So what happened was... [2:17:35] So Brian Fogle was doing a documentary. So he's a cyclist and a documentary guy. And so he said, I want to do a cycling event, a race, completely natural. And then I want to do it on steroids and I want to document it all. And then make this documentary on what is the difference and just show – because cycling is a very dirty sport. Like Tour de France, those guys, they put engines in their fucking bike to make it easier to pedal. They do a lot of crazy shit. [2:18:05] blood doping so he does this naturally and then he gets this guy um what was his name again

[2:18:13] Grigory Rechenko, who was the head of the Russian anti-doping federation, but it was really a doping federation. So what they were doing at the time was... [2:18:28] So – [2:18:29] He starts working with this guy. This guy is telling him what steroids to take and how to get better. At the same time, the Russians get caught while he's filming all this. And that guy has to leave the country. And that guy spills the beans. And he tells them exactly what they did. And what they did was they took the clean urine. They made a hole in the wall. So the place where they stored all the urine, they made a hole in the wall where they could swap out the Russian urine and swap it in for good urine. [2:18:59] micro abrasions on these supposedly unopenable jars. Yeah. And so when they looked at it with a microscope, they said they figured out a way to open these jars. So they would pass it through the hole in the wall, open the jar, empty it out, put in clean piss and give it back to them. So essentially the entire team was doped up. Yeah. So basically that's why they say... [2:19:24] In the Olympics, they wasn't sure if Russia was going to be able to compete, right? Exactly. And so in Brazil, the follow-up Olympics, the next Olympics, the entire team couldn't compete. [2:19:34] the cycling team no the entire russian team all those so the cycling thing was just this guy that was doing this documentary and he was using the head of the russian anti-doping agency to help him do it pup like openly so it was just for a documentary it wasn't like trying to win a race and cheat he was like saying let's see what you would give me and how much better my performance would be yeah so in the middle of doing all this this scandal gets exposed yeah and this guy who

[2:20:04] candle and then this guy tells him everything. And it's nuts. Russia did compete in the Olympics though. [2:20:10] They did compete in 2016. They must have competed in 2020 then. Well, I think they allowed individual athletes to compete, whatever the subsequent Olympics was, but they didn't allow them to represent Russia. [2:20:26] Okay, yeah, because it was a guy from Russia in my weight class. [2:20:30] Oh yeah? And the 2016 Olympics. [2:20:33] He definitely was kind of strong, too. [2:20:37] Well, the Russians, I mean, they were the beginning of all this stuff. Like the Eastern European women weightlifting. So they came up with the cheats. Well, they figured it out. They figured it out early on. They've been doing it a long-ass time. [2:20:53] So who knows? [2:20:55] with better be of or any of these guys it's you've got to always assume that without something like vada or drug-free sport or usada there's always going to be someone who's trying to figure out a way to get a competitive advantage yeah i hate it it's gross i hate it it comes with it though yeah it comes with it it is what it is [2:21:17] So, um... [2:21:19] Anything else you want to cover before we wrap this up? Nah, I ain't got nothing else. I think we're good. Listen, man, congratulations on everything. It's been beautiful to watch you fight. I'm a giant fan. Thank you. And I'm happy to see after the Lopez fight, you get all the respect and the credit that you deserve. And I can't wait to see what happens next. Thank you. I appreciate you. And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on this podcast.

[2:21:43] One of the best podcasts in the world. I appreciate it. Thanks very much. My honor. All right. Bye, everyone. [2:21:49] We'll see you next time. [2:22:03] This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. [2:22:15] Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. [2:22:29] I buy one, the farmer's dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The farmer's dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier [2:22:59] best friend something every dog owner wants the answer to that is [2:23:04] is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [2:23:12] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only.

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