#2421 - Derek, More Plates More Dates

[00:15] Look at this. [00:16] A red gummy fish. I'm about to try it for the first time. And this is a nootropic... [00:20] Yeah, so it's, I think on the first episode maybe that I did with you, robust, eh? That's good. Yeah. Oh, that's delicious. You mean robust? You're saying it like it potentially is a negative thing. Oh, both. Flavor and... I think it's great. Oh, right on. Red gummy fish. This is fucking delicious. I drank the shit out of this. Oh, a lot of stuff in here. What's in here? [00:41] So I think it was the first time I was on, you asked me about Gorilla Mind and the nootropic formula that I used before podcasts to get cognitively dialed. And at the time, it was a capsule-based formula. And it still is. It still exists. But taking what we could to suspend in a liquid format and getting it into something that's more like... [01:01] publicly and widely accepted that they would want to drink on a regular basis and it's something you could use daily. It's kind of what we did in this. So we included essentially like a daily use of, [01:12] version [01:13] of the Gorilla Mind formula, which includes the tyrosine precursor for dopamine, as well as other neurotransmitters, catecholamines like adrenaline or adrenaline. [01:24] Also, AlphaGPC, most bioavailable form of choline. It crosses the blood-brain barrier and is pretty efficacious, and also just a good choline source in general, which most people are deficient in as a nutrient, and I think completely unaware that it's actually important to be supplementing with potentially.

[01:43] choline but where does it come from in food liver is a good source eggs and in general it's just like the highly nutrition dense [01:52] foods that you would get it from, a lot of people aren't focusing on specifically either because of caloric density or it's like an animal-based nose-to-tail thing or fill in the blank. It's not impossible to do it. A lot of people... [02:04] who focus on it could probably relatively easily, but it's still one of the things you have to focus on. [02:10] actually kind of like maneuvering into your diet typically. So in general, most people are at least maybe like 50% of the way that are at best, and that's even among people who I would say are relatively balanced diet individuals. Interesting. So I'm sure you're familiar with cholinergics and their impact on cognition and whatnot. Caffeine, tried and true. How much you got in here? 200 milligrams. Nice. [02:36] Very difficult decision trying to come up with what is the amount you're going to stick with in perpetuity in this thing. Everyone's addicted now. It's a real issue with caffeine. So it's like the fine line balance of not too much, something that is still tolerable, sustainable, going to be widely accepted and widely impactful on a beneficial level but not overdoing it. And 200 is kind of what we landed on. And then uridine monophosphate, pretty unique ingredient. I haven't seen anybody ever included in a drink, let alone even in supplements typically. What is it? [03:06] It's also something that operates via the cholinergic system, but in a different way. Mainly, utility is kind of enhancing your sensitivity to stimulants. So somebody who is otherwise desensitized from, like...

[03:22] heightened exposure to things that either desensitize them to [03:27] caffeine or nicotine or things of this nature, even something like the ADHD medications. This can actually, at least the literature, suggest strongly that it enhances [03:37] dopamine neurotransmission potential, so like almost restoring function and damaged... [03:42] dopamine-producing neurons in the brain. So you can kind of get a heightened impact out of the same level of stimulant. So a caffeine dose that might otherwise be... [03:52] You're used to it now. You start to feel it again more than you used to without having to increase your caffeine intake. Oh. Yeah. So it's a pretty cool ingredient. And it seems to have some neuroprotective properties potentially as well. And some... [04:05] Interesting literature on, like, Alzheimer's and whatnot, but it's more like fringe and to be determined how impactful it is. And then on top of that, we have L-Thenian. [04:14] probably familiar with its effects stacked with caffeine, increases alpha waves, good for verbal fluency, as well as just general attention, concentration, but keeping you a little bit more balanced and mellow while you have the heightened stimulatory activity from the caffeine and the other kind of like dopaminergic compounds. And then also saffron extract, which is a totally unique inclusion, in my opinion, still don't really see it in nootropic formulas, let alone in drinks. And it's something that's [04:42] in literature is shown to be as efficacious as pharmaceutical SSRIs without inducing the same erectile dysfunction-inducing effects of it and without causing the same anhedonia-inducing effects, which is kind of like the muting of pleasure in the brain. Xsaphron. Yeah, super interesting ingredient. It seems to be pretty impactful for depression, for

[05:12] stacked up against SSRIs for its [05:14] comparisons and outperforms them or matches it with a relative lack of side effects. It is something that operates through seemingly antioxidant activity, some dopaminergic, some serotonergic, and just a little bit more of a benign way to achieve what is a similar outcome, but with a [05:31] seemingly lower, if not negligible to non-existent side effect profile. I'm not saying that's what our drink does. I'm just saying that's what the literature on saffron says, and anyone can go look that up and reference it. And then huperazine, probably the most impactful acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that... [05:47] you can include alongside like choline precursors. So it inhibits the breakdown of acetylcholine as opposed to being, [05:54] the fuel like the precursor like choline acetyl uh alpha gpc cdp choline these are things that provide the substrate to actually produce the acetylcholine preventing the breakdown of it too could otherwise get like a one two punch where you get the heightened fuel substrate but then also an inhibition of its breakdown so you have just like a heightened level of cognitive uh [06:16] capacity through both like the one-two punch. How did you determine these like doses and what you were going to include and not include? [06:27] Uh, so a lot of it derived from the original capsule-based formula. So back in, I don't know, 2021, I had already been using this thing for... [06:36] daily use essentially. And it was something that was determined based upon years of experience, personal anecdotes, but digging through hordes of clinical literature. Ultimately there's a lot of these compounds that have,

[06:51] clinical studies on them for different applications. You can kind of sift through what are the efficacious dosages, where are they impactful, [06:57] Or as a sustainable level, you could actually take this long term without it being... [07:01] negatively impactful on because sometimes if you overdo it in one area over time, it might be problematic. So trying to find the fine balance of where is a dose that moves the needle, but isn't going to kind of like push you in too far of a negative direction that it's unsustainable. Because sometimes that this stuff, it's like, [07:20] a hammer solution. You might see an energy drink that's like 300, 350 caffeine. It's like, okay, you know, you've essentially like singled out a lot of the customers who might otherwise benefit from it. Even if there was other good stuff in the drink, it's like only stim junkies can use it now, you know? So yeah, this is kind of like the fine balance of what I thought to be the most sustainable version of balancing, you know, dopamine input, serotonergic activity, getting some of that, you know, anti-anxiety support and also getting a reasonable hit of caffeine. [07:50] And did you, so in pill form, so did you start out by using each individual supplement and then trying to use them in combination to see if there's a synergistic effect? Like, how did you do it over time? I guess maybe that's a bit more interesting than digging through literature, but when I was a [08:08] university student just like being a nerd mixing stuff in my kitchen like a chemist essentially and just measuring raw powders back you know in the day what we would do or at least you know like biohackers and what have you we'd buy just like off of different websites raw bulk ingredients and then you'd measure it with little micro spoons in these laboratory increments to try and get okay the microgram equivalent of this and you'd make some disgusting shake with a concoction of

[08:38] combination through trial and error ultimately and were you like doing a diary like today i feel great yeah i was just keeping a log almost like you know working out like how did you respond to fill in the blank or just take into account like sleep all these different factors diet as many variables at the time obviously a bit more rudimentary and crude when you're like 21 years old and you're just trying to like get cognitively locked in to study for finals but back then it was [09:08] most impactful things that I've heard. [09:10] work, and then also digging further into literature, looking on the limited forums that existed back then online, because it's a lot more of a [09:18] Like a niche community back then? It's not like this was widely discussed. [09:24] 2018? [09:24] 2009, 2008. This episode is brought to you by Traeger Grills. If you enjoy food, and I mean really good food, Traeger is a game changer. This isn't just a grill. It's the ultimate way to cook outdoors, delivering unbeatable wood-fired flavor thanks to the all-natural hardwood pellets that fuel everything you grill, smoke, or bake. That's it. Just wood and fire and flavor. And what's truly wild is how easy it is. [09:54] Cut the temp, load the grill, and let Traeger handle the rest. Grilled steaks, smoked ribs, even baked pizza, all on one grill. If you're into fire, flavor, and doing things right, check out Traeger Grills. [10:08] Let's talk about Service Titan, the AI for the trades. The trades are the backbone of this country. And for the first time, they've got technology that actually matches the work. Over 10,000 contractors already use Service Titan software to run their businesses. Built by two guys whose dads were in the trades, this isn't some tech company guessing at solutions.

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[12:08] Early days. Yeah. That's when I first started fucking around with them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I first found out about Neuro One. That was the first one I found out about. Okay. Did you ever try that one? Neuro One. It's Bill Romanowski's company. [12:20] The football player. So he developed it because he was having cognitive problems after years and years of playing football. And so he came up with this formulation. And I was doing this radio show, Allison No Name in San Francisco. And No Name is a dude. I forget his name, unfortunately. Ironically. So long ago. But he was working out with Romanowski. Romanowski was trying to get him in shape. And he gave him this stuff. He said, hey, try it. And it was, you know, I do morning radio. [12:50] like I was doing Cobb's Comedy Club when you ever be doing a comedy club [12:54] This is back in the day when radio meant something. You'd show up in the morning and you'd do the morning drive. And they would go, oh, Joe Rogan's appearing at the comedy club this weekend. Come see him. And you'd be funny on the radio and have a good time with the people. And he gave it to me. And I was like, hey, man, this stuff feels like something's going on. Like this is legit. And that's what really got me. That's how we developed AlphaBrain. We developed AlphaBrain after me trying out Neuro One saying, can we optimize this? Is there another way to do this? [13:24] missing and but your formulation seems like very comprehensive and also fucking delicious yeah it's one of the difficult things too is making it taste good while still being able to suspend [13:36] the active ingredients because they could just fall out of suspension or myriad of different issues, carbonation problems.

[13:43] even exploding cans in transit that you're not predicting are going to react a certain way. Even the black lids, dude, like it's stuff you don't even think of, but absorbing heat. It's like, oh, it's going to be more prone to blowing up now because of that. Oh, because of a black lid. Did you want a black lid just for aesthetics? Yeah, at the time. This looks cool. Yeah, exactly. And so what are you sweetening this stuff with? Primarily sucralose, which obviously, you know, some people have their opinions on it, and that's totally fine and good. [14:13] It seems to be well tolerated. What is the issue with it that people have? I think some people think... [14:18] It depends on the person and, like, the kind of content they make typically. Typically, they have a bit of a – A bias. Yeah, but in general, it's, you know, going to irritate your gut or it could cause GI distress. And for some people, it's extremely sensitive – [14:31] gastrointestinal issues, it can for sure. But in general, at the dosages used and just having it even conservatively, which most people are going to be, it's like... [14:41] pretty benign at least from the literature I've seen one of the things that we had uh noticed when we first came out with alpha brain was for some people it's a small amount but for some people they would get headaches and they felt terrible after taking it um I don't know what their dose I don't know if they were taking the recommended dose or if they were saying well two's good I'll take five and there's a lot of folks like that out there but um [15:05] Yeah, some of these, if you're not careful, it could be, you know, pushing you into, like, we've vetted this out beforehand, but one of the first formulations or prototypes of Gorilla Mind in the capsule form, we had something called velvet bean extract, which standardizes to L-DOPA.

[15:22] So, like, Levodopa is used for, like, Parkinson's patients because it's a direct precursor to dopamine without a rate-limiting step that kind of, like, regulates the conversion. So rather than using tyrosine, we were like, we thought, and we didn't end up releasing it because of this, we could just go, okay, let's get a straight precursor and see how impactful this thing is because we really want it to hit. [15:52] And my parents fucked themselves up. And somehow it didn't occur until like three incidents later. I'm like, okay, this thing is unsustainable. [16:03] I guess my business partners didn't really even think worth mentioning, which was kind of crazy at the time. [16:10] Because they just trusted me to do the formulations and whatnot. But they had the same experience and didn't bring it up. And I'm like, guys, we can't release this shit. And it was just way too intense. What did it do to you? It just makes you extremely nauseous. You feel like you have to keel over on a couch and just lie there until you feel like you can actually regain composure and start moving around again. Yeah, dopamine... [16:33] A lot of people think more is better. Right. You're going to have more motivation, more drive, more, you know, the more the better is what a lot of people think, but similar to – [16:41] Probably even worse than stimulants because at least stimulants you have kind of like a direct biofeedback. So your heart rate is going through the roof and you're getting the anxiety. With dopamine, if you overdo it with something that you can't rate limit either, you just get sick. And you just end up having to lie down for hours. Interesting. One thing I like about a drink versus a pill form is that you can just take a little. Yeah, you can meter your dose. Yeah, because you take a pill, you're taking a pill. That's it.

[17:11] or pour some of the capsule out. No one's doing that. But this is nice because you can just kind of sip a little bit of it. How many of these can you drink in a day? Yeah. [17:19] I could drink a lot, personally. Like, you don't even want to know, dude. How many do you drink a day? On a typical day, probably two to three, but I could. What's recommended? Oh. [17:32] Check the warning label, bro. What does the warning label say, bro? It must say no more than two a day. But I would say on a podcast, not more than one is what I would recommend. Yeah. Well, especially with all that caffeine as well. Yeah, you never know. In general, 400 milligrams is even like the FDA stated, you know, everyone's going to be okay, probably dose. But in reality, it's kind of crazy. A lot of people don't realize the studies done for... [17:59] caffeine, [18:00] Induced performance enhancement are all looking at like three to six milligrams a kilogram, which is like unless you're a tiny woman. [18:08] 400, 500, 600 milligrams are the doses that actually really move the needle when it comes to acute performance enhancement. Chael Sonnen used to take it in pill form. [18:18] Yeah. Because he was saying that there's a level where they'll test you where you'll pop, where they'll say, okay, you're in a stimulant level. Like, you took a stimulant before you fought. Yeah, they have a – they had threshold concentrations that they would deem – [18:36] inappropriately high, perhaps for safety, perhaps because I thought it was an unfair advantage. I think that's what they were looking at. It kind of depends, though, because I think it was removed, and I don't think that threshold exists anymore except in the NCAA. I'd have to revisit it, but I'm pretty sure caffeine is like...

[18:51] Essentially, you could go full bore at this point. Interesting. So 500, 600 milligrams was what the efficacious dose was? [18:59] Um, so you can get performance enhancement as low as I think some people was like a milligram per kilogram. It depends on the person and tolerance, of course, but in general, the most tried and true studies when it comes to repeatable. [19:14] high impact [19:16] with a proportional relative lack of side effects, but not none, was like three to six milligrams a kilogram. And some of the studies go even higher than that. Interesting. And what are the benefits? Like, what did they get? Like acute strength enhancement, offsetting like any sleep induced deprivation and performance outcomes. Mentally, you can pretty much offset like a shitty night of sleep and all the kind of [19:40] detriments to your performance via a pretty solid dose of caffeine. [19:46] Yeah, most of the stuff is kind of energy, acutely offsetting, performance decrement related, but also in a context of strength, high intensity activity. You can absolutely get a benefit from that. And there's a reason why, you know, sprinters will take, you know, modafinil or high dose caffeine or power lifters will take, you know, massive doses of, you know, pre-workout before a lift or whatnot. [20:16] to really... [20:17] max out on what you're trying to do, whatever it may be. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. A nice, cold, happy dad is low-carbonation, gluten-free, and is easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense. When you're watching a football game or you're golfing, watching a fight with your boys or out on the lake, these moments call for a cold, happy dad. People are drinking all these seltzers and skinny cans that are loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal-sized can.

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[22:34] you can go up to 20 grams of creatine or, you know, the highest impact dose in caffeine literature is, you know, three to six milligrams a kilogram. It's not like I or I imagine Chris is like blindly recommending anybody start there. And it could easily get misconstrued that way in like a clippable format. If people will just like hear the headline and then run with it, like you should start as low as you can with caffeine. And you could get a ergogenic effect as low as I think the lowest dose was like 50 to 100 milligrams, [23:04] body weight, but it's all, like, tolerance- [23:07] It's just when you look at the studies, like these are the repeatable high-impact outcomes are typically in – and especially in like trained athletes where you're trying to see how hard you can push them – [23:18] It's kind of like, you know, for max stress resilience, max, you know, acute force production. These are the kind of dosages that are just used in the studies. So anyway, with that caveat and same with the creatine. [23:27] You know, you might shit yourself if you go to 20 right away. Right. You don't want to start that. A lot of people do, apparently. Yeah, and I mean like... [23:34] like ronda patrick amazing content and she tolerates 20 grams well which is kind of like surprising because i know a lot of women who don't i think she doesn't probably uh micro doses it throughout the day and is really regimented about making sure she's diligently spreading it out but some people who they bomb 20 at a time even guys who think they have iron stomachs just shit a little bit so much powder too just the fact that you're consuming all this powder [24:04] Speaking of which, are you still doing the million gummies there?

[24:07] Of what? Of creatine. No. You said you were going to crank that shit up to get the 20 grams. I stopped with the gummies, and I went to powdered form. Oh, okay. Because I felt like I'm tired of eating these fucking things. You got up to, like, what, like 10 plus a day? Oh, more. I was eating, like, 15 a day. Holy shit, dude. 15 gummies a day. But the issue is, like, what else is in the gummies? You know, what are the other things? Yeah, they're not free of calories either. It's kind of just, like, if I'm going to eat candy, you know, I kind of want it to be, like, good candy. [24:37] what it's sweetened with. They taste good. But the point was, I didn't like eating them. [24:42] I was eating too – I'm, like, forcing myself to chew these things down. I'm like, what am I doing? I can just mix creatine in a glass of water, stir it up real quick, and just chug it in five seconds, and we're done. I don't have to chew and swallow all these stupid fucking gummies. I know. But I do keep them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I keep them around because I think it's a great thing. Like, if I hadn't had enough lately, I'll just pop a few. It's, like, the best gateway drug, if you can even call it – it's not, like, a drug, but to get people who otherwise would never try it to actually see the benefits of it. Right. [25:12] women who literally refuse to take the powder. Right. Even though it's kind of tasteless, it's still a nuisance, can be a little bit messy depending on the scooper shape of it and everything and how you're going to try to convince a chick like... [25:26] Trust me, it's really good for your health if you fucking swig this thing dry and then chase it with water every day. It's not the easiest sell every time. They're like, fuck you, I don't care. So the gummies are good for that, in my opinion. And yeah, I mean, going back to the 20 grams and the offsetting of performance deteriorations,

[25:47] I do think it's basically offsetting kind of the deficiencies in like ATP production, especially locally in the brain. And also kind of offsetting the pulling of resources away from like methylation support and whatnot in order to produce the endogenous creatine as well. These things can all be impactful to kind of like get you back to almost baseline. [26:17] or you're traveling or what have you, it can absolutely be super impactful, and the literature has shown that time and time again. What's interesting is that creatine in the 1990s was thought of like steroids. Right. [26:27] Yeah. I mean, it was really frowned upon. Like, oh my God, someone's taking creatine. They're cheating. It was really... That's like how it was first introduced to the market. You'd have to hide it from your parents when you're a teenager. Really? Yeah. Well, at least when I was a teenager, it was kind of like... [26:43] It had a taboo still. It was kind of like steroids light version. Well, it's because it works. Yeah, and parents... But they hear the stigma and the taboo associated. Like, I heard creatine. They're selling it at the GNCs. Yeah. You know? Better watch out for that one. Meanwhile, they had real steroids at GNCs. Oh, yeah. The irony, too. Yeah. I mean, they're like fucking M1Ts over the counter from, you know, like... [27:05] Some 19-year-old kid who's just, like, manning the counter and doesn't care and will, like, fuck your endocrine system up to sell it to you? 100%. I took some stuff called Mag10. Do you remember that? If I saw the ingredient deck, I'm sure it's just, like, some fucking run-of-the-mill M1T product or something. Gained, like, 10 solid pounds of muscle in a month. And I bet your liver markers, not that you did blood work back then. Were destroyed. Yeah, like, worse than if you took, like, injectable Trent even. Right, right. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, well, 100% it killed my dick afterwards, too, when I got off of it.

[27:35] like, what's going on? And I was like, oh, this is a real steroid. Yeah. And that's like, you're not giving the PCT from the guy at the counter. I felt like a fucking gorilla when I was taking it. I felt so strong when I was taking it. I literally gained, I think it was like I was on it for five or six weeks and I gained 10 solid pounds of muscle. The amount of people that have [27:55] inadvertently gotten gynecomastia from those days when they were sold some irresponsible hormone over the counter without like any knowledge of what they were taking and then had to just recover naturally with no support. [28:09] It's a shame. Yeah, well, there was so much of that stuff, like werewolf blast. There was a dragon's dick. You could buy them, and they were just pills. They were just regular pills. The stimulants are crazy, too. Like ephedrine was over the counter. Oh, yeah. And, like, so weird. But in Canada, for relatively recently even, it was still available over the counter, even though Canada is, like, super tight on regulation when it comes to the most weird stuff. [28:39] even have a can with 200 milligrams, it has to be like 180 or lower. [28:43] Why exactly? I don't know. But... [28:45] That is a thing, as well as limitations on basic amino acids. It's like tyrosine if it's more than like 10 milligrams or something. Amino acids? Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah, it's crazy. Based on what? Nonsense. Oh, God. Fucking nanny state. But anyway, so ephedrine, for whatever reason, was still over-the-counter available in GNCs up until like a handful of years ago.

[29:15] dilator but also because people were buying it in bulk to make meth i believe it i took rip fuel once for jiu-jitsu right before jiu-jitsu and i had to stop in the middle of class yeah i was like i gotta sit down i pulled over to the side of my guys my fucking heart is beating over my chest and i was explaining i don't remember how many i took but i took some rip fuel i was like well it's good to lift with i'll try it for jiu-jitsu it's fucking for something that like really taxes [29:45] Right away, I was tired. Like, right away. Like, right away. Like, we start rolling. I was like, God, I'm fucking exhausted. My heart's beating out of my chest. But in your brain, you're like, this feels good. I knew I fucked up. I did it once, and I never did it again. If you're doing that sport, but for a guy who's going to the gym and is told, like, this is the shit, bro. If you're just lifting. Yeah. If you're just going for, like, max bench, that kind of shit. Anybody watching will know, you know, the original. Have you ever heard of Jack 3D? Yeah. [30:15] Yeah, it was nuts. And what's crazy, too, is back then it was proprietary blends on a lot of the products and it was still the norm with no education available, no YouTube to really tell you what to look for. Also, no oversight. Yeah. So these companies would basically sell you for, you know, 50 bucks a tub of... [30:33] like a powder flavored tub of just like the stimulant. And then it was like, like all the other ingredients for vasodilation. They're like, fuck you. You're just getting DMA, bro. Yeah. You were just getting like straight meth. Yeah. It was crazy. There was so much. Those were the wild west days of like GNCs and like local vitamin shops. Yeah. Because you could get stuff that really worked, like worked like something that's highly illegal. Yeah. And you could buy it with a credit card.

[31:03] so ruthless, but you couldn't really prove them otherwise. Right. It was always like a pit bull with giant muscles on the cover of it with lightning bolts. It's funny, too, because some of these companies, it's like, now we're in the mix competing with them on shelves or whatever, but I remember being... [31:20] like convinced [31:21] Back when I was a teenager, by them, oh, you need, you know, Gakic, Lukic, and Kreekic, and this combo that costs $250. Yeah. And it's, like, you know, literally pressed tablets of, like, glutamine or something at a dose that doesn't even help. And they're telling me, like, this is what J. Colter used to fucking preferably Olympia. Sure. Yeah. He's like, look at the before and after of Lee Priest. He lost, like, 50 pounds of pure fat and kept all his muscle from... [31:47] Cell tech. Oh, that's the dirty thing about those bodybuilders back in the days. They couldn't admit that they were on gear. So they were all just telling you they were taking this stuff, and then there would be spokespeople for it. God, it was so deceptive. It was so creepy. And you would have to know someone at the gym. [32:03] Who would, you know, go, oh, I want to be like Lee Haney. Like, no, that's not how he got that way. You've got to take the real stuff. This is what he's actually taking. And so many people didn't think that those bodybuilders were on, like, hardcore steroids. Yeah, it's a deception at a mass scale for sure. It's the whole sport. Yeah. The whole sport was just a complete... [32:26] like three card money game. Yeah. It's crazy because now it's almost full circle because, you know, I was back then, you know,

[32:34] you know, conv... [32:36] at least at the time when I didn't know any better oh you know I guess this guy must be natural because he told me so or whatever and it's like I'm skeptical but like and you know you think in hindsight it's absolutely ridiculous but now a lot of bodybuilders are pretty forthcoming because it's more normal to be transparent and also not mislead people and you know unethically sell things and just reality check people on the [32:59] what it's going to take to be at that level, and is it the risk you want to, you know, subject yourself to? Because back in the day, too, it was like you didn't know if you had good genetics or not when it came to certain dosage responses. So you would, like... [33:12] always think the next guy is just taking more than you. It would result in guys unspokenly thinking, [33:19] this guy must just be taking 5x the amount of shit I'm on, so I need to go to, like, 5 to 10 grams of total gear per week now. And you were just like, that's what led to so many early deaths in bodybuilding, too. I think there's another thing, another factor is that, [33:35] The consequences of lying and getting caught now are huge. Because if you lose all credibility and people know that you're just a bullshit artist... Yeah, that too. And then they'll never trust you again. Like, you have one... [33:49] to tell the truth forever. Yeah. And the moment you violate that, you're always a liar. Yeah. And that's a giant fucking issue with... [33:57] Whether it's actors or anybody. All these guys who prep for roles, they're talking about it now. They're like, oh, I took Anivar, I took this. Like Mickey Rourke did when he was talking about that movie The Wrestler. I remember they were asking him on whatever talk show he was on. He's like, oh, I fucking took everything. What are you talking about? I took a ton of shit. That guy was a pioneer of interviews for that kind of stuff. Well, he's a wild dude. He'll tell the truth. Yeah, but you have one chance to tell the truth forever. You violate that, and you're always going to be a bullshit artist.

[34:27] Yeah, a guy who's pretty good about that now is Frank Grillo. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was doing some, like, men's health thing. And I have never seen men's health. [34:37] Talk about steroids forthcomingly. Interesting. Yeah. So they had him on a sit down interview and they were like, so, you know, what's it take to be at your recent? Yeah. So last year, within the last year. Right. If not months ago. Is this when he was talking about Anovar? [34:50] Yeah, and he talked about his TRT protocol and kind of like the realities of how impactful it actually is and improving his performance and how it makes him feel. And he was just like pretty non-trigger-coated about it. Well, he's a good example because he was clean for a long time. Yeah. Like he had like very low testosterone because he was just going on willpower. He was really just working out on willpower. [35:13] Action star lifts the lid on fitness recovery and the reality behind the scenes physiques. Frank Gillil 60 gets real about Hollywood steroid use. They all do it. Well, that is a fact. But he was not on anything for a long time, like deep into his 50s. [35:28] And he got his testosterone taken. He's good friends with Brian Callen. And he got his testosterone taken. It was fucking nothing. He had like zero. But he was just very disciplined and working out hard. But he didn't look like he was on gear. He just looked like he was ripped. He was shredded. He was in really good shape because he trained every fucking day. And he was doing a lot of boxing. So a lot of heavy caloric expenditure. A lot of long rounds. Hitting the bag. Hitting mitts. Doing sparring.

[35:58] And also, you're going to like your metabolism is going to be like completely jacked. Yeah. So then for him to talk about, OK, now I got on this and then I got on that. And this is the improvements, my sleep, my mood, everything got better because, you know, he's talking. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? [36:28] So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. [36:58] They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is... [37:13] is yes, obviously. So try the Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. [37:22] Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens.

[37:52] real time before it starts. There's also no long-term contracts and no technician appointments. You can get a custom system and set it up in one afternoon by yourself or even sooner. It's one of many reasons why millions of people continue to trust and use SimpliSafe. Everyone deserves to have peace of mind, which is why I'm happy to partner with SimpliSafe again and offer an [38:22] SimpliSafe.com slash Rogan. That's half off at SimpliSafe.com slash Rogan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. It was like his testosterone when he got it tested was super low. Yeah. Yeah, it's probably one of the few examples, actually, still to this day, though, of somebody being, like, really transparent. I actually saw The Rock talking about peptide use recently, which is kind of like a... Interesting. Yeah. Dipping his toes in the water. Yeah, exactly. [38:52] Oh, wait, man. Oh, dude, yeah. It's kind of crazy. [38:55] Yeah, and there's a lot of speculation about if it's, like, a health thing or what, but... [39:00] And that's tough to know because he just had the role where he gained the most eyes he ever has, too. Right, right. But that had to be terrible for him. Oh, for sure. But it's like, would you have subjected yourself to that if you knew? [39:13] I don't know if he would have known, but you would have think proactively he would know how close he is to kind of like an issue being. Probably pretty close, 50 years old and getting up to 300 pounds. Yeah, I just mean, I think he probably had more preventative screening before that role to know he could even subject himself to it without dying. Because it's like a pretty risky endeavor to go become the biggest you've ever been at that age. So to then downsize after the theory is that.

[39:42] He was literally about to die, essentially, so that's why he lost so much weight now. [39:46] And I'm thinking... [39:48] I think maybe he's just like trying to take like a health phase and kind of like come down and wait for a bit and he'll probably like crank it back up. Honestly, I think just this is pure speculation. I haven't talked to him about this. I think. [40:03] based on what [40:05] he tried to do with the smashing machine I think he's trying to win an Oscar and trying to be a real actor because he was really good in that movie did you see it? Not yet. It's the best mixed martial arts movie ever that's not saying a lot because they all suck. But it is the it's the most accurate in terms of historical matches like they had all the matches like with Igor of attention all these different people that he fought that Mark Kerr actually fought and [40:32] It's just a good movie. It's a really good movie. Like... [40:36] Like Emily Blunt plays his crazy girlfriend and she's out of her fucking mind. And to the point where like they're arguing right before he fights and you're getting anxiety watching like, oh, Jesus fucking Christ. It's just such a crazy, toxic relationship. It is Emily Blunt, right? [40:52] I didn't fuck that up, did I? There it is. She's fucking great in it too. It's just a really good movie that I think would have gotten a lot more credit. [41:01] if it wasn't a mixed martial arts movie. Because I think, you know, mixed martial arts movies, like, oh, it's some fucking meathead, like, rah, rah, rah, you know, bullshit movie. But it's a very good movie. And he...

[41:14] is Mark Kerr. Oh, he was so accurate. So good. Yeah. He just, and not just the fighting stuff, man. The fighting stuff was great, but the acting stuff, like he played that guy. And I know Mark. I was like, fuck, that's Mark. That's nuts. It was so good. [41:31] It was a really good movie. So what I think he's doing is the same thing Bautista's doing. [41:35] Dave Bautista. Quite inversed. Well, Dave Bautista lost a lot of weight, too. Yeah, but I guess I mean, like, typically when actors are trying to get taken more seriously for more impactful, like, artistic, creative roles, it's almost like the Jack Meathead guy downsizes to do something more, you know, like, I don't know, artsy. Yeah. But, like, this is getting as yoked as possible in order to be the arts. Oh, yes. Right, right, right. Whereas Bautista is like... [42:01] Fully downsized, I think, now. Yeah, but what I'm saying is now, what he's doing now, I think he's probably trying to get different kinds of roles. Roles where, like, I mean, have you ever met him? No. He looks like a superhero. He looks like a superhero. Like, we worked out together. He came to the gym, and I brought a bunch of comedians. We worked out and hung out. [42:20] Like, Tony Hinchcliffe was in his glory because, you know, he loves pro wrestling. We're all in the sauna together hanging out with The Rock. It was the first time he probably still doesn't know that he uses gear. What's that? He probably still doesn't know that he uses gear. What do you mean? Hinchcliffe is just like. Oh, Hinchcliffe doesn't know that he uses gear. I still remember the episode where he was dumbfounded that you and Chob thought that he was doing anything.

[42:50] It's like a religious thing for him. It's like, you know, Mary was a virgin. She gave birth to Jesus. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, he fucking loves pro wrestling so much that he is completely locked in. [43:06] A reasonably in-the-know guy who has friends in the space, too, like you and, you know, Schaub know about this stuff. Yeah. And even he was, like, surprised that you guys thought that at the time. It's funny. Yeah. It is funny when you think about it. So imagine just the average person. They probably, you know. Right. And also he's, you know, been very coy about it and saying, actually not really coy, probably deceptive, right? Just, like, strategically perfect in his tact when it comes to avoiding it. Yes. [43:36] it instead of saying i've never taken steroids he's kind of like look over there yeah exactly but everybody who knows knows you know it's one of those things it's like you look at them you're like there's no way there's there's no way there's just no way i think i i can't imagine talking about peptides and putting the feelers out there would not eventually transition to like you know it's it was recommended to me by my doctor to be on you know hormone support or whatever 100 yeah like i [44:06] Thank you. [44:06] Just come out and say it. I've always just come out and said it. I don't see any problem with it. But I don't have that kind of a reputation. Like, the problem with, like, being the pro wrestling thing is, like, you're a role model for the youth. And, you know, you have to, especially a guy like that, he's a giant movie star. You don't want to be telling everybody you're on gear. He probably wasn't for, like, a big chunk of his early career. In his early career. Right. Yeah. His early career, I don't think he was.

[44:36] I just lost my face off. Yeah, that's the thing. When he became a superhero. I mean, the first time I met him, he had cowboy boots on, so he's even taller. And he just looked like a fucking brick shithouse. I'm like, but they're not even a real person. This isn't a real person. This is a superhero. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, it's crazy, dude. But I think he's still jacked. It's just proportionally to relative to what he was. You know, it's kind of like. [45:01] Anybody who used to be a bodybuilder or had significant amounts of size, even me, like people in my videos are like, you know, you've lost everything. And it's like, okay, I'm not like... [45:10] non-existent anymore i'm just like not a bodybuilder anymore you know what i mean yeah so if with him it's like he's still yoked he's like 230 240 or whatever yeah the thing is like super gear heads will always criticize oh you're gonna go fucking church now they get crazy they said that about bautista too but he's like 240 i think you just gotta stop wearing like the weird tapered gucci suits it just makes him look a little bit more slender than uh it is not [45:40] complimentary if you didn't know what he used to look like yeah that's what's crazy like you look at him the guy looks fucking great yeah yeah yeah [45:48] Yeah, objectively, if you just look at it with no baseline. Pull up a photo of Dave Bautista now. And he's also just getting older. Yes. There's got to be some level where you get acceptance of, like, okay, you're allowed to downsize so you don't die. Yeah, you could die. That's the thing. If you're pushing gear at that age, so there's, yeah, like, look at Bautista on the right. You wouldn't say that's a small guy.

[46:10] So [46:11] You know, that's not a small guy. He's a big fucking dude, but he's just slimmer now. He looks like, like if you saw an Emmett, like Alex Pereira, you don't think Alex Pereira is small, but you know, he's 240 pounds. Yeah. If he was bodybuilding for a while and then decided to convert to, you know, MMA. That's the thing. But he also got like, that's what he looks like now. Like that's not a small guy. Yeah. And he's like, I don't know how old, but I mean, that's 2025. He's got to be 50, 56, 56. So that's. [46:41] He's fucking shredding. He looks fucking gigantic. [46:44] Yeah, I think he actually did a role recently where he bulked up, now that I think about it. Yeah. And he went to, like, it was, like, fat weight, too, which is crazy. Yeah, that was that, God, Glass Onion? Was that what it was called? [46:58] There was some... [47:00] some movie that he did was a really good movie. It was a movie where like some billionaire had everybody come to his island for some crazy party and there was a murder. [47:09] What was that called? [47:10] That, I think, is Glass Onion. That was Glass Onion, right? He was huge for Glass Onion. [47:16] He got gigantic. He got big for something else, too. But I think he was, like, playing... [47:21] I don't remember what his role was, but playing some former athlete or something along those lines. Yeah, he was housey, dude. It's weird when you get really big for a movie that sucks. You know what I mean? Or kill yourself for a movie that sucks. Yeah, I hope it did well. Jesus. Christian Bale did that for The Machinist. He almost died. 75 pounds he gained for Knock at the Cabin. Oh, that's what it is. What was that movie? Show me what that looked like. Oh, yeah. Knock at the Cabin.

[47:51] It's a horror movie. [47:54] I did not watch it. Wow. [47:58] A horror movie, huh? [48:01] Do you watch horror movies ever? Oh, yeah. I love a good horror movie. He was 315? Yeah. Jesus. So now he's 240. Yeah, it's much more sustainable. Yeah, but that's like a weird weight. That's like, what the fuck did he eat to get that big? And again, he probably did that at like 52, which is... [48:16] Fucking dangerous. Yeah. You probably got sleep apnea. You're all fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. [48:21] Charlize Theron did that too recently. She did it for Monster. I know. No, again. She did it again? Yeah. Don't do that, Charlize. [48:28] Oh, God. That's real? Yeah. [48:31] What is it for? I forget the movie. I just saw this photo the other day. [48:34] I think some women, they're probably like a lady like her. They're probably like – [48:39] Tully? [48:41] It might even be new. It's such a flex when you're a hot lady to get fat and gross. And, like, when she did Monster, she shaved her eyebrows off. Did you see the Sydney Sweeney, like, boxing? I didn't see that. Not that she got fat and gross, but, like, she gained some weight. Did she? Yeah. Yeah. [48:58] That movie got zero attention, the Christy Martin movie. Oh, yeah? Because it was like three decades past when anybody gave a shit. Oh. You know what I mean? I at least got the impression, I haven't watched it, so I could be way off base, that it was kind of like one of those artistic kind of like. Probably was. Look at my versatility in roles kind of thing. Yeah. What did Sidney Sweeney look like in that movie? Did she gain weight?

[49:21] They might have put her in a fat suit. Well, they said she gained like 30 pounds of muscle or something, which is like the typical headline nonsense. Yeah, horseshit. Yeah. But she definitely like, you know, took it seriously and gained the weight that she needed to to look whatever the role was for sure. Yeah, that's such a weird thing, the acting world. You have to change your – like Robert De Niro was the first guy to do it for Raging Bull. You remember Tom Cruise in – Tropic Thunder? Yeah. Yeah, but that was a fat suit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was. [49:51] He had his forearms fat. He shaved his head. He was fucking great in that movie. Sick movie. Oh, fuck, what a movie. That was the last bang before Woke. That was the last movie that you could ever do like that before Woke kicked in and essentially ruined great comedies because you couldn't go too far. You can't do that anymore. You just get in trouble. Yeah, it's like back then, if you were to ask, okay, you know, have a hit list of just like ready to laugh your ass off movies that are just like low effort. [50:21] You don't have to think too much. You can just sit down and enjoy. There's a bunch of bangers from back then. Yeah. But it's like now it is. I don't even know what to go to. They don't happen anymore. Yeah. Like the Farrelly Brothers movies, like Kingpin, fucking great movie. You know, there's so much, something about Mary. There's so many of those, like, outrageous, hysterical movies that, it was funny. I asked Robert Downey Jr. I was like, I go, you couldn't do blackface in a movie today. He goes, no. [50:48] Oh, you could do it. But what would happen afterwards is the big deal. He got it in like – it's like the scene in a movie where the elevator door closes right before the monster gets to you. He got there just in time. It was perfect timing where he didn't suffer from it.

[51:06] No, yeah, it's crazy to see the Delta and just like, I don't even know what to watch when I go on Netflix now. Well, with comedies, it's really fucking hard. [51:14] It's really hard. The only thing that's really wild and free is stand-up comedy. Like, to do a comedy movie and just go... [51:25] full Tropic Thunder is almost impossible today. Yeah. [51:29] But if somebody did it, if somebody just self-financed it, oh, my God, it would fucking kill. It would make so much money, and then it would open up the floodgates because people still want that. [51:38] You know, they still love... Like, it's... [51:40] It's not that you agree with everything these people are saying and doing. It's comedy. Like, I don't agree with John Wick killing everybody. You know what I mean? But he's not really killing everybody. Like, it's a fucking movie. And it used to be that you knew that when you went into these movies before everybody was, like, looking for everything to potentially be offended by. [52:01] yeah [52:01] It's just like ruined everything. What do you watch now? [52:05] I don't watch comedies anymore. But, like, just in general, do you have any, like, kind of just, like, low barrier, just I sit down and turn my brain off? Oh, there's a lot of great stuff. You know what I watched last night, Jamie? You recommended Pluribus? Is that what it's called? I only watched the first episode. Holy shit. What a weird show, right? Holy shit, is it good? Holy shit, is it good? It's a new Apple show.

[52:35] Aliens send a transmission to Earth, and there's this insane impact on society. But it's like fucking total left field movie. You don't see it coming. It's crazy. Or not movie, television show. And again, like Jamie, I've only seen the first episode. But it's great. It's like, holy shit. He's giving you anxiety. It's so good. Did you guys watch, what was that other Apple show that was really good? It was like in an office setting. I can't believe I'm forgetting it. Severance. Yeah. [53:05] Yeah, I did watch that. Zevins was great, especially the first episode or the first season. The first season was great. After a while, they get a little weird because you're running this very strange game that you're doing. People remember and don't remember, and then you fuck him with the guy's head so he can remember. [53:22] Thank you. [53:23] Yeah. What about Stranger Things and It? Those are two that my girlfriend has me watching right now. I watched the first episode of Stranger Things last night as well, or yesterday as well. That was great. Yeah. Yeah, that's – dude, it's kind of crazy how much time is between these seasons now. It's like you finish – I almost don't want to commit to something because it's like, well, if I like it – Yeah. [53:45] Fuck you to me, you know? Fuck you for the next three years for next season. Game of Thrones. It's a great example of that. Oh, dude. House of Dragon. Good luck seeing you the next season, bro. Well, not only that. [53:57] Unfortunately, with House of Dragons, it's got to follow Game of Thrones, which is one of the best series of all time. And the characters just aren't as compelling for whatever reason. And so I don't know who the fuck anybody is. So the new season starts. I'm like, who's that?

[54:11] Yeah, and maybe I just have a monkey brain, but I'm watching, and I'm like, I didn't see a dragon the whole fucking episode. I need a dragon. I feel ripped off. Yeah, I need a dragon. I need that dragon to fucking kill somebody. I need to burn somebody alive. Yeah, it's... [54:25] There's a lot of great shows now, but again, it... [54:28] you could own it's very hard to make a great comedy you can make a great like mindless entertainment like fun show slow horses that's a great show that's a [54:40] Is that an Apple show? I believe it is. Yeah, that's another Apple show with Gary Oldman. It's a spy M5 or MI5. What do they call themselves? [54:50] Am I [54:51] MI5? The numbers of the person, I think it's... Whatever, I don't know. Whatever it is. It's a spy show. British spy show. That's a really good show, too. It is MI5. [55:01] Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of great shows to watch. I think it's probably the best time ever for content if you just want to sit and be entertained. It's probably the best time ever because of streaming. Because streaming, instead of one episode, you're watching a show and it takes place over an hour and then the next episode is totally different, a totally different subject line, different story. [55:31] Mm-hmm. [55:32] and drag it out over many, many seasons. We have this running storyline. [55:39] Yeah, yeah.

[55:41] I'm kind of just tuned out of TV at this point. I just watch what my girlfriend wants to watch. Stranger Things and It is the thing right now. Yeah, I watched the new It show. Yeah. I watched the first episode of that, too. That looks great. It's oddly overlapping with the Stranger Things. I feel like I'm kind of watching the same show. [55:57] Kind of. Like, obviously totally different overall stories, but, like, you know, you have kids and these kind of, like. And evil things. And I don't want to, like, wreck an episode, but they mention it. Not specifically it, but a story about, like, an extraterrestrial evil being called it in a Stranger Things episode. I'm like, this is a weird fucking reference for these being at the same time right now. Yeah. Well, they probably didn't plan that out, right? Yeah. I don't know, man. [56:27] is that what it's called? Yeah. The new one. But it's good. That's good, too. The release date scheduling makes absolutely no sense for Stranger Things, too. It's like in batches, and the next batch is coming out on Christmas. And then the final one is New Year's. New Year's? It's like the exact times you, like, probably can't bang out all the episodes, or, like, you're gonna have to force your family to sit there with you. What's that? That's a high school kids can. Yeah, high school kids can. That's like their vacations. Well, I think Stranger Things is so big, they could [56:57] watch it at three o'clock in the morning and it would still get 30 million views. But like just such a weird choice. I don't know. Well, it's just weird that it takes so long to make one of those damn things that you have to wait three years in between seasons. And then you have these kids. [57:11] that are playing 15-year-olds, and now they're fucking 30. Yeah. It's kind of weird. You can tell some of them. It's like, how do we make you look as young as possible? Yeah, you give them goofy haircuts. And then there's also, like, spoiler alert, there's some computer-generated imaging. So they're using some sort of an AI program to make scenes with the kids when they were young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you kind of can tell, but you kind of can't tell. It's, like, really good. Yeah.

[57:41] You can just AI generate the whole thing, but. Yeah. [57:45] Well... [57:45] It's getting close. It's getting to the point where – [57:49] You know, there's no excuse for waiting three years because you could have AI generate scripts and do it in an hour. What about F1? Are you guys following it at all right now? The show or the actual racing? No, just the actual racing. I went to the F1 that was in Austin. It was amazing. This year? Yeah. Okay. It's awesome. For, I think, right now... [58:09] It's the first time in the last 15 years they've had three drivers run [58:14] coming down to the final race to win the championship between them, and the final race is this weekend. Oh, really? Yeah, it's like... Where is it? I think it's in... [58:25] Is it in Abu Dhabi? I don't know. That might have been the race that just happened, but it was nuts, dude. [58:30] Because right now you had McLaren, who was like a shoe-in to have their main driver, or at least the guy who was in the lead, take it. But they're refusing to favor one over the other, which is a typical strategy for whoever's in the lead. You'll have the other one kind of like block people for them to make sure they win the driver's championship. They're refusing to do that? Yeah, they're like making sure they can have equal opportunities to win. But the net result might now be none of them win and a guy from Red Bull takes the thing. Oh, that's crazy. [59:00] I guess, but also just lack of enforcement from the pit boss, like team guy, who's like supposed to be enforcing team principles and whatnot. It is kind of funky that that's how you win. You have someone, it's a team game.

[59:22] team championship, but the thing that most people actually care about is who's the best driver in the world. Right. And that will be... [59:30] coming down to one person, even if it's a guy from a team that won the thing, they're still competing against each other. And sometimes they can get pretty reckless where they're, [59:38] you know, one is not willing to compromise and he'll like blow the whole thing up to make sure that he has the best opportunity, understandably. But it's also like you guys are getting paid tens of millions of dollars. Maybe you should listen to your fucking. [59:51] guy who's telling you what to do. This is an ad for BetterHelp. The holidays come with a lot of traditions, gathering with family, cooking those once-a-year recipes, and leaning into the little rituals that bring everyone together. That's something I always look forward to. But there's another tradition I think we should all start doing during the holidays, and that's taking some time for ourselves. This season, you do so many things for the other people in your life. You plan get-togethers around everyone's schedule. You spend hours picking out the right gifts and [1:00:21] the right food, but you also deserve just as much attention. Otherwise, you'll burn yourself out. So do yourself a favor and take some me time. Go on a hunting trip. Have a quiet night with a book. Maybe even schedule a session with a therapist. Therapy is an extremely effective way to make sure you're focusing on what you need. And BetterHelp can easily set you up. They have access to a wide

[1:00:51] you even if that first match isn't a good fit you can easily switch to another therapist this december start a new tradition by taking care of you our listeners get 10 off at betterhelp.com slash jre that's better h-e-l-p.com slash j-r-e yeah i get it but then again if you're on another team you're like well this is kind of bullshit because this guy didn't really win the race he [1:01:21] Yeah. [1:01:22] Fair enough, but I mean like part of it is kind of like that. That's like part of the strategy. Oh, I get it. I get it, but maybe we should abandon that strategy because if – [1:01:31] If it is a race. [1:01:33] Yeah, I guess it's just problematic because it's so bandwidth intensive, too, to manage the two drivers that if they're equally trying to win and only one is more likely to – [1:01:44] What may very well happen on this weekend is they both don't win. [1:01:49] Interesting. Yeah. So – I got a tour of the McLaren pit last year, and they showed me, like, all the different technology that's involved. And they gave me, like, a rundown of how much engineering is involved in these things and explained everything. It's crazy. Yeah. They're all just trying to shave – [1:02:07] Tenths of seconds out of turns, and then it all accumulates over the course of the race. Yeah, it's, like, pretty psychotic when you look at what the differential is and kind of, like... [1:02:18] What really separates these guys, it's often just like minuscule amounts and just like the littlest mistake. What are those guys on? That's what I want to know. Do they test them? They are tested, but not to the rigor of like an Olympic. Do they test them for a gorilla mine? I'm sure they're probably using it. This is probably a good thing for them to take. Probably for something that's not banned, yeah. Is any of this stuff banned, do you think, in 2001? No, none of it.

[1:02:48] is all like very straight edge... [1:02:50] uh like really tried and true nootropics that work through kind of like endogenous pathways or things otherwise backfill neurotransmitters similar to like the creatine deficiency that we talked about if you backfill it and you can otherwise you know have a readily available source of phosphocreatine to offset atp deficits uh [1:03:10] L-tyrosine, stuff like that, similar just in regards to dopamine, for example. I'm an hour in, and I feel it. It's legit. Yeah, it's very legit. And again, it's very delicious, so congratulations on that. Oh, thank you. Those guys lose a ton of weight, too, during those races. Oh, dude, so much water loss. Yeah, because you're fucking hot as shit in those suits so you don't burn alive if you crash. Yeah, so new different strategies like hyperhydration, using things like liquid glycerol could be impactful to retain more water. Do they wear a diaper? [1:03:40] But... [1:03:41] How long is the race? It could be – I think it depends, but it's like upwards of an hour, an hour and a half. Yeah, just piss yourself. Yeah. Yeah, just sit in your own pee for an hour and a half. Yeah, you would have to. I would imagine with that kind of money on the line, just fucking let it go, baby. Yeah, I don't even know if you'd have to, though, if you're just like perspiring like a motherfucker. You might not. They come out drenched. Right. Yeah, and they've lost like tons of weight. That's a good point. But sometimes in the sauna, I have to pee. [1:04:10] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I'm like 15 minutes into a sauna session. I'm like, God damn it. I can't hold it. So I got to open the door and go out and piss outside and then climb back in again.

[1:04:20] Have you ever tried glycerol for hyperhydration? No. What is that? It's just like straight up glycerol. It's like a sugar, but it also has a hyperhydrating effect that you can hold upwards of an extra pound of body water if you have it as a supplement. So some endurance athletes will use it before events in order to retain more water in a way that is not. It enhances like thermal regulation, your ability to tolerate stress. You don't lose as much. You don't dehydrate as fast. [1:04:50] for its kind of like unique application. [1:04:52] Maybe even avoiding pissing at nighttime could be used. Really? Potentially, yeah. Oh, that would help because I always have to pee. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that helps me is sauna before bed, though. Sauna before bed, I can generally sleep through the night. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'll do like a session about an hour before I go to sleep and no water after that. Oh, yeah. [1:05:13] That usually does it. Yeah, if you do a water cutoff that's pretty regimented, it's probably the best overall strategy. As long as you make sure you hydrate in the morning. So I'm pretty diligent about that. First step in the morning, amino acids with water. I do that 99% of the time, like first thing, before coffee, before anything. And do you put electrolytes in it? Yeah, yeah. I take Gary Brecka's stuff. It's called Perfect Aminos. It's aminos and electrolytes. I get that in first thing in the morning. [1:05:43] just, you know, [1:05:45] Get it out of the way. And I didn't used to for the longest time. I would just hit the gym right away and just drink water when I was in there. But I feel a difference. What about – I thought step one was cold lunch. Yeah, it depends.

[1:05:58] I haven't cold plunged in the last three weeks because I got some stem cells. And I'm still sauna-ing. So it seems like... [1:06:07] There's a lot of controversy about this in terms of like what you should and shouldn't do post stem cell injection. I have a very minor Achilles tear when I was elk hunting in September. I twisted my ankle pretty bad and I didn't think anything of it. I stopped limping after like 15 or 20 minutes and I was like, I think I'm OK. And I have. [1:06:31] And I was wearing, at the time, I was wearing very light boots. They were like, you know, just a real light boot that you wouldn't do for heavy mountain trekking. And we did some steep elevation. And then the real problem is going down. And, you know, when you're going down like several thousand feet over the course of like an hour. Yeah. It's fucking brutal. And I twisted one of my ankles. Yeah. [1:06:59] And then the next day, I put on a much higher, more rigid boot with great ankle support, and I was fine for the rest of the trip. But then... [1:07:07] That's the fucking worst when you just got to, like, stare at the ground the entire time you're walking. Because the littlest off-step, you just roll your ankle or... Not only that, you'd go down. Yeah, yeah. You know, you could die. We were in pretty steep country in Utah, but... [1:07:23] Interestingly, I didn't notice anything was wrong until I'd get into a push-up position.

[1:07:29] which is weird so when you know i do 100 push-ups every morning 100 push-ups 100 bodyweight squats that's my warm-up before i do anything and so when i got into like a high push-up position with like my butt up in the air it's a lot of stretching on the achilles and my left achilles was fucking killing me like sharp pain i was like fuck this hurts and i thought maybe i maybe it needs to stretch out so i did some like jump rope doesn't bother me jump rope doesn't bother me [1:07:59] for like five weeks. And I was like, all right, I got to get this looked at because it seems like it might be getting worse every time I do that. And so I got a... [1:08:07] I got it scanned and there's a minor tear in my Achilles and Achilles tears are a fucking nightmare. You know, if you, you blow out your Achilles, that's a nightmare. It's a long rehabilitation process. Blood flow to the area. Especially at 58. Yeah. It's a fucking, it's, that's a long recovery. I'm like, I'm looking at a year before I could do everything again. Then you lose all your gains, all your cardio, everything. You can't move right. You're fucked. So, uh, I got a stem cell shot in there and... [1:08:37] There's a lot of debate about when you should be able to cold plunge after stem cells. And a lot of the literature seems to say three months. [1:08:50] It doesn't seem to think – sauna, there's more indication that sauna is probably therapeutically beneficial for the stem cells because the idea is that these stem cells are still in the area trying to heal the tissue. When you cold plunge, you kill them.

[1:09:11] But when you're doing sauna, you're increasing blood flow, and it might help them. So what they said is like – [1:09:18] I wouldn't do anything for a couple weeks. Nothing. And then after that... [1:09:21] just sauna for a while yeah so i haven't done a cold plunge in over a month seems excessive not that i'm scared to go back in yeah because i was so used to it oh you got to get over the hurdle again i'm so scared every time i do it i almost don't do it every fucking time i do it i almost don't do it yeah um so like for the past month it's just been get up and just work out and then sauna afterwards what's the uh rehab stack is it any different than what you were already doing or [1:09:51] 500, that's it. It's definitely improved. BPC local in the Achilles? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right there. Or you just pinch the sub-Q area and kind of like that. I shove it right in there. I think local is the way to go. I've done it subcutaneously, like in the side and love handles. [1:10:08] It doesn't have the same effect. Yeah, if you can get it to the area, it's like, why not? Yeah, I think BPC-[redacted address] to go, but it's definitely getting a lot better. It doesn't hurt at all anymore. Yeah. I'm just making sure it fully heals up. Yeah, interesting note on kind of like the hormone support stuff. This past month, the FDA actually removed... [1:10:32] Most of the black box warnings off of women's HRT products. Yes. Pretty amazing. Yeah, really amazing because so many women were lied to for so long. They were told that there's all these negative effects of supplementing your hormones. But my God, how many fucking people just lost quality of life for fucking nothing, for no science at all?

[1:10:54] It's just complete horseshit. But there's so much bad fucking science out there, man. It's a real problem. It's hot as shit in here. There's so much bad science out there, man. It almost gets to a point where you almost have to look at things through the lens of does this sound like nonsense? [1:11:10] Yeah. Well, and then where do you go? Like, who do you trust? You know, unless you're well versed in who the respectable online people are. Yeah, like you might see, you know, however many studies that say fill in the blank exotic compound is like totally ineffective. [1:11:29] Who was it tested on? For how long? What was the dosage? Right. And like it might be a completely useless interpretation for your specific nuance scenario. And if you hear hordes of anecdotes from everyone in your circle you trust who actually knows what they're talking about, has been in the trenches, knows their body well. Yeah. You can't really ignore that. What was the narrative about female hormones and why did they do that for so long? Do you know? So – [1:11:57] I think it was in the 90s, the Women's Health Initiative were assessing the viability and safety profile of [1:12:03] of hormone replacement therapy. And I might butcher this a little bit, but in general, the overall context is relatively accurate, I'm sure. And it was like, of a thousand women or something, if they tested HRT, I put in HRT, [1:12:17] Air quotes, because like... Estrogen. [1:12:19] not even like human bioidentical estrogen. It was... [1:12:23] Like, equine horse piss-derived estrogens. Horse piss? Yeah. For real? Yeah. So it was, like, literally the most synthetic, you know, animal-derived shitty estrogen that is not bioidentical at all and...

[1:12:37] also a synthetic progestin that is not bioidentical to progesterone. It's just like a progestin analog, essentially, that... [1:12:46] fulfills activity at the receptor, but is otherwise like, you know, the equivalent of putting you on like a micro dose of nandrolone or a micro dose of, you know, fill in the blank progestin derived compound or 19 or derived compound that. [1:13:02] progestogenic activity, but just is not progesterone. So it's like to try and say, you know, this horse piss derived estrogen formula and the synthetic progestin we apply to these women is the equivalent of you having been on progesterone [1:13:15] what you would otherwise produce as a young, healthy, vibrant woman from a bio-identical estradiol and progesterone perspective, simply not accurate. But that's like essentially the comparison that they made. [1:13:27] you know, presented as such. And the result was, [1:13:30] A relative... [1:13:31] risk increase of breast cancer incidents, I believe, to the tune of like one of a thousand women. And the absolute number was like three of a thousand. The placebo arm had... [1:13:44] breast cancer incidents and then I think four out of a thousand had breast cancer. So then the media ran with a 26% increase in risk. [1:13:53] So everybody got panicky. Yeah. And like I might be misinterpreting. [1:13:57] one or two variables, but like high level, that's essentially what it was, and it caused mass hysteria and panic and basically dictated the facilitation of black box warnings being put on

[1:14:07] hormone therapy is so the most aggressive FDA warning that shows [1:14:13] Basically, any clinician that's looking at it or anybody who's going to take the risk of using it, this is the most dangerous drug you could use with the highest risk of lethal side effects potential. And then on top of that, it just wasn't representative of what is actual replacement therapy with what is the hormone you would be producing naturally. So for years, we went thinking, oh, it's going to cause clotting issues. It's going to cause cancer. It's going to do this. It's going to do that. [1:14:43] scenarios, is it justified because that person just absolutely has a quality of life deterioration that is so significant that it's worth it to take the risk to use or Ramon replacement therapy. And it's like now... [1:14:54] Similar to some of the common sense interpretation of things, this doesn't make sense. Look at all this literature showing the cardioprotective effects, showing the neuroprotective effects, showing the bone support and integrity. Look at what you lose if you don't take these hormones. You're essentially giving yourself a... [1:15:12] worst quality of life inevitably and deteriorate deteriorating your health. Um, unquestionably like with men, there is some semblance of residual activity you can maintain and some men maintain vibrant, you know, reasonable testosterone production to old age. But with women, it's kind of like, [1:15:28] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like most of us are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan.

[1:15:58] designed to keep you connected and no contract holding you back. Switch today at visible.com. Plan start at just $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code ROGAN, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. [1:16:21] This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. When you're looking to hire, you consider someone's skills, experience, availability. But even more important than that is someone's enthusiasm. They should want to be there. Finding the right kind of motivation isn't as tough as you think. You just need ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. [1:16:51] latest feature puts the most interested ones at the top of your list so you can make sure you're speaking with the right people at the start use zip recruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day and now you can try it for free at zip recruiter.com slash rogan that's zip recruiter.com slash rogan [1:17:21] ZipRecruiter. Like right when the lights shut off. Yeah. Like drops off a cliff. Yeah. It's interesting how the initial narratives get stuck in the public zeitgeist forever. Like the initial narrative for testosterone replacement was you can get testicular cancer, prostate cancer. And it was just so many people like, I don't want to mess around with testosterone replacement because I could get cancer. And then Brigham Bueller explained that study. Yeah. And then Brigham Bueller explained that study. Yeah.

[1:17:48] Yeah. And explain the real results of that study. And it's like it didn't show that anybody got prostate cancer from it. It's just not true. Yeah. And it's like even the mechanism by which they argue it would cause it doesn't even make mechanistic sense because it's like the only way you're going to increase. [1:18:05] the prostate growth is via bringing, and it's like, of course, when you use hormones that are androgens, like you're going to grow tissues that they're exposed to, but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing necessarily. And if you're a hypogonadal male who has low T, you know, [1:18:20] and it goes up to just the threshold of barely acceptable, [1:18:24] That's where the growth essentially stops. And if you go beyond that into medium normal, high normal, even super physiologic territory, your prostate doesn't linearly grow in exposure. Otherwise, bodybuilders would have massive prostates busting out of their bodies. Giant dicks. Imagine if that... We wish. It didn't happen. Well, how come it grows in large clitorises in women? Because the physiology is... [1:18:48] essentially interchangeable in that you could have gone in any direction dependent on your exposure to these hormones. Oh, right. It's why. Yeah. So if a man exposes himself to significant amounts of estrogen – [1:19:01] and has hormone deprivation. There are some irreversible anatomical changes because they've already matured. [1:19:08] that will not go away. But like with women, it's like the inverse and you could otherwise get closer to that like extreme scenario where you're once your voice box gets you a certain like anatomical development. You can't necessarily go back to your high pitched, you know, yeah, that's a real problem with D transitioners. They keep that voice forever. And it's the real problem is it never even becomes a man voice.

[1:19:33] it just becomes weird. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the inputs are in there. Like, trans men never develop a voice like, you know, Isaac Hayes. [1:19:42] Yeah, that's one of the tough things with HRT, too, is like as much as I think it's so amazing that it's being educated about and there's widespread attention being brought to the importance of it, there's also the cowboy docs who... [1:19:57] almost go to the hyper extreme of optimization and are putting women on aggressive dosages of testosterone saying you've been lied to you know this is actually what you need to feel good and for a woman who's been you know asexual for years and feels you know has no energy and they are told this guy is you know the cutting edge doc who everyone sees they will probably trust his guidance and [1:20:20] As early as before I started Merrick Health, which is my company, my mom was getting hormone therapy guidance from a doc who was relatively well-respected. [1:20:31] And the dose he put her on of testosterone was so aggressive that her voice was changing within weeks. And I had to, like, cut the cord on it. I was like, what the hell is this? And her testosterone levels were, like, in the, like, 300 plus. Whoa! Yeah, so, like, you're essentially low... [1:20:46] Low normal... [1:20:48] healthy male territory not like actually but like on a clinical reference range and absolutely potential for masculinization yeah and also horny as fuck potentially yeah but it's like you didn't need to go there probably to get to horny as fuck my wife has a friend who got on it and uh she's a british lady and she had a very funny first she goes his stuff makes me feel like a bloke

[1:21:18] looked hormone that is absolutely important in women just the same as it is in men. It's just like [1:21:24] You got to kind of know what you're getting yourself into when it comes to like what is reasonable for a doctor to tell you you need and at what like concentrations you should expect, you know, blood level targets to be. Because if you just go in blind, you might end up with the most exotic, you know, like Beverly Hills doc who thinks you should be on like the craziest cocktail ever because he knows you're going to feel it. [1:21:48] and respond really, really well immediately, but then also might just, like... [1:21:54] fuck you up permanently. Well, this is also the problem with transitioners. When you're becoming a trans man, the initial impact is alleviation of anxiety and euphoria. You start feeling great because that's what testosterone does for you. [1:22:11] It doesn't mean you're supposed to have that. Your body's going, what the fuck is this? And now you're essentially – [1:22:19] You're changing the whole cocktail of your body and you're going to give permanent changes that if you make a decision when you're 14, 15 years old, they put you in this stuff. Those detransitioners are some of the saddest stories, man, because they've become sterile. They'll never have children and they lose their tits because they go to a doctor that thinks you should have your mammary glands chopped off when you're 15.

[1:22:49] because it's like what gets accepted and not accepted and what you know what because again like we're talking about the zeitgeist when a thought gets out there and then it's very difficult to move away from that it's like oh you're affirming your true self like really with with synthetic hormones that didn't exist in your body before that's that's your true self yeah are you fucking sure it sounds like this might be a social contagion yeah like sweeping through the land and [1:23:15] One of the things that's really interesting is the – [1:23:18] The drop-off of kids identifying as trans is – it coincides directly with Elon buying Twitter. [1:23:25] Oh, wow. Yeah. Like immediately when you could, because you used to not be able to talk about it. You still literally, if you, if you dead name someone from Twitter, meaning like if you changed your name to Dominique and I called you Derek, I could get banned from Twitter for life forever. That's just by using your old name. Like if I called Bruce, Caitlin, Jenner, Bruce, I would get banned from Twitter for life. [1:23:50] Damn. [1:23:51] Because it's nuts. But it's like this very bizarre social contagion, this weird mind virus that went through the whole country. And everybody just signed up for it. And no one wanted to be a bigot. So I don't want to be a bigot. Yeah, I think as much as I think... [1:24:06] Like access to drugs is super like you should have the full liberty to do whatever you want. That's where the importance of educating yourself is so critical because you really don't know what you're subjecting yourself to. If you have an immature brain, too, you have not even had full like frontal lobe development to try and think you're going to make a sound decision with how you're going to impact your lifelong life.

[1:24:28] Ah, physiology? It's like, probably. You can't even have a tattoo. It's not even legal to get a tattoo and get your penis removed. It's fucking crazy. It's fucking crazy. Oh, they know. Some people know as early as three. I've had conversations with people on this podcast. I have friends that have trans kids and they knew right away. Like, are you sure they didn't have a fucking insane mother and a gay child? Because that might be what was going on. And now this gay child will never have an orgasm again. Because you've convinced them they're not a gay child, that they're a woman... [1:24:57] which is, in fact, completely homophobic. [1:25:00] Yeah, interesting extreme of the scenario, but maybe on the opposite is guys who are in their – [1:25:07] in adolescents who are so hyper-educated that they use the knowledge to biohack their development into becoming as maximally tall and, like, infrastructurally sound as adults as possible. Right, right, right. And that's a really interesting predicament because it's like – [1:25:23] Any, like, reasonably ethical doctor will be like, there's no fucking way I'm touching that, like, case of overseeing anybody's care who's doing that kind of thing. I was watching a podcast about this where this guy was talking about his son. And he's short and his son is short. And his son's friends were also short. And their parents got the kid on growth. And they grew, like, a lot bigger than the parents. Which is Alexander Karelin. [1:25:50] Do you know Corellon's story? They call him the experiment. He's the freakiest wrestler that has ever existed. I know who it is, but I didn't know that specifically it was in adolescence that he was subjected to. Well, this is speculation on my part. Have you seen my photo that I have out in the gym? It's the photo that I put up to remind myself of what a pussy I really am. Is that when he's about to fucking toss that dude? He's fucking hoisting that picture, that one. Yeah, it's a famous one. That guy was 300 fucking pounds and moved like a cat.

[1:26:20] Like unbelievably mobile and flexible and had like an insane record. I think it was like 280 and one or 280 and two. Like fucking insane. Like one of the most dominant wrestlers of all time. [1:26:34] They call him – in Russia, they would call him the experiment. Yeah. And you see his parents. His parents are like 5'5", 5'7", like small people. Yeah. And he's this fucking behemoth of a person. Yeah. And, of course, the Soviet doping program is legendary. The movie Icarus highlights that, but everybody knew about that. The Eastern Bloc weightlifters, the females, they set records that were never broken again. These women completely became men. Yeah. You know, like there's a lot of evidence that they were doing that to their athletes. [1:27:04] fact that they wouldn't do it to their most dominant wrestler in the history of the fucking sport and the guy who was the absolute biggest freak in the history of wrestling like there was nobody like that guy yeah we should talk about some of those russian drugs i heard uh you bring up [1:27:20] trimtazidine with somebody the other day. But before that, have you ever heard of the Lionel Messi story? No. Okay, so did you know that he was destined to be a dwarf if he didn't get on huge amounts of growth hormone? Really? Yeah, so he got supplied with pharmaceutical growth hormone by the team that was... [1:27:37] trying to get him to basically be with them. Well, he's a small guy as it is, right? Yeah. So he grew to what is otherwise an acceptable adult height, but he otherwise was destined to be. [1:27:49] literally a

[1:27:51] Dwarf, whatever the socially acceptable term is. Wow. Yeah, so they either [1:27:56] paid for his pharmaceutical growth hormone and admitted, like got it for him, paid for it, made sure he was taking it, or he didn't become the greatest. Some argue, you know, the, [1:28:06] football player of all time. Well, it's also, you have to take into consideration, like, how much of an effect did that have on his performance? I mean, it definitely... Because, like, that guy can do things that no one else can do. Well, he definitely wouldn't have grown to the height he is. But it's not just the height. It's the explosive movement, his ability to change direction, like, better than anybody. The infrastructure is obviously supporting of it. I don't necessarily know... [1:28:30] It would be impossible to really quantify that there's no A-B test of it. Right. Right. There's no placebo-controlled trial. Well, you know, if he didn't do it, he would not be even playing. [1:28:42] Wow. I did not know that. Yeah, it's probably one of the most... [1:28:47] It's overlooked but wild cases of a professional athlete who, like, needed to go, like, full board to the tits. How old was he when they did that to him? A young teen, if not a child. I was seeing 11 years old. Yeah. [1:29:02] Wow. Yeah. It was like you either take this at the dose that is going to, like, push you to... [1:29:09] maximal IGF-1 output territory and we get you to as high of maturation as possible or you're not going to be a professional player. How tall is Messi now? [1:29:18] Five, seven. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy. You know, I told you the old Romero story, right? Yeah.

[1:29:25] Probably. Yoel Romero is the biggest athletic freak I've ever seen in my life. And I've seen a lot of athletic freaks. Like Yoel Romero, when he, I believe it was in Australia, he was fighting. And after the fight, goes to a doctor, gets checked up. He had a fractured orbital. He had a rough fight. The doctor examines him and then says to the UFC, where did you get this guy? Oh, yeah. Can I tell you this? Yeah. And they go, hey, he's great, right? He goes, no, no, no. [1:29:55] His... [1:29:55] tendons in his eyes are three times the size of a normal person. Oh, right, right, right. They said his orbital bone is already healing. That's crazy. Like – [1:30:04] What did they do to him? Because he was on the Cuban Olympic program. Yeah. You know, and the way he talks about it, like the program was like so regimented. In fact... [1:30:13] They had tiers of athletes, and the highest tier ate three times a day. The tier below that ate two times a day. So it motivated you literally to get more food to compete. And you're competing with these guys that their entire life is wrestling. That is everything. And it literally can feed their family. It's a matter of whether or not their family gets food, whether it changes your social status. And he goes, and because of that, you become a machine. [1:30:43] I'm saying it. I could do a good Yoel. You become a machine. And he's the biggest freak of all time. In fact, everybody who fights him says hitting him hurts.

[1:30:55] Yeah. Yeah. What Robert Whitaker said is like hitting metal. He goes, dude, he's like, you hit the guy. He doesn't feel like a normal person. He goes, it's like you're hitting metal. He's still competing, but in, was it one? Dirty boxing. His dirty boxing was his latest one. Oh, my God. He's almost 50. He's jacked as fuck. Now he's a heavyweight, full six-pack, almost 50 years old, fucking gigantic. I mean, now he's got to be geared up. [1:31:25] Because he's in these fringe leagues that, you know. You'd think. Their drug test is a fucking multiple choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you want? I'm on Jesus. He had that famous speech. He was saying, don't forget about Jesus. He goes, don't forget Jesus. [1:31:42] And everybody thought he was saying, no gay Jesus is not gay. Oh, my God. And so they thought he was homophobic. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, forget Jesus. He was saying, don't forget Jesus. Like, Jesus is important. And everybody's like, oh, my God, Yoel Romero used his platform to say homophobic things after a fight. [1:32:03] no he can't speak english very well you know and he's religious i feel like yeah that guy he uh i always felt like if he just kind of like threw himself into the fire more he could just like crush it the problem is cardio when you're carrying around that much weight you know first of all wrestling his wrestling was above and beyond anybody else but he would just like slug when he didn't need to well they get in love with knocking people out first of all and that guy's

[1:32:33] He knocked out Chris Weidman, one of the fucking scariest flying knees I've ever seen in my life. It was a great fight up until the moment they put Chris Weidman into the shadow realm. But he hit him with this flying knee. Just explode. He lulls you. So what is it? It looks like he's tired or whatever. Then he jumps on you. And his ability to close the distance is so – it's like you think about wrestlers. Did you see Bo Nichols last knockout? [1:32:56] He knocked out Adolfo Vieira with a head kick. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was spectacular. But Bo Nickel is an elite wrestler, like a top-shelf blue-chip wrestler. And one of the things that wrestlers have is this ability to close distance because they're on the outside and they can just shoot doubles. So that explosion naturally lends itself to closing the distance and striking because it's the same kind of thing. [1:33:26] super jacked, but he's a gi jujitsu guy. Gi jujitsu is all about... [1:33:32] strength and control technique as well but it's a a tight game it's not a game of like jumping moving across distance quick it's a game of they're gripping each other and then you know it's a lot about strength and it's a lot about technique but it's not about closing distance so rodolfo vieira is like a plodding like really super jack guy and bo nichols just light on his feet moving on the outside and just closing distance cracking him getting out and

[1:34:02] to sleep. But it's that... [1:34:04] That ability to close the distance, nobody did that better than Yoel. Yoel was the best at that because he's just a fucking unbelievable athlete. And with Izzy, he fought Ezreal Adesanya, and Izzy said, dude, I had to stay on the outside with that guy. I could not just go after him because the counters would come so fast. Yoel caught him with a big left hand early in the fight, and he was like, oh, well, fuck this. He's like, we're going to make this a boring fight. [1:34:34] this motherfucker because it's just the consequences of being too close to him where he can do that yeah it's just you have to fight a technical fight with that guy to stay on the outside pick at him move a lot don't set don't set your feet ever never be in a place where he can just like because he can just launch on you and blast you yeah the on the flip side of that [1:34:58] The leaping in the middleweight of Chemaev, ruthless to watch. That was like the most painful fight I've seen recently. Oh, yeah. The trick is duplicy fight. Yeah. Well, that's just levels and levels above everyone else. Just like closing distance, even when you know what's about to come. Can't stop it. Yeah. Once he gets his hands on you, you're fucked. [1:35:19] There's something about that kind of wrestling from the Chechens and the Dagestanis and maybe even him more than any of the other ones. [1:35:28] It's just so aggressive, and he chains things together so well. And if you're not training with guys like that, like Schaub told me that he went to see Chmaev when Chmaev is in training camp for Dreyka's Duplessy. And he called me up. He goes, dude, listen to me. He goes, like, Schaub was a top 10 UFC heavyweight. He's been around forever. He was in camp with George St. Pierre when George St. Pierre was in his prime. Nate Marquardt was in his prime. He's like, dude, I've never seen nothing like this.

[1:35:58] in world-class wrestlers and he's fucking ragdolling them he goes he's a freak [1:36:05] He goes, he's going to fuck Drickus up. I go, really? He goes, dude, if he gets a hold of that guy, he's fucked. [1:36:12] Turned out to be 100% accurate. [1:36:13] Yeah, it was like the most obscene example I've seen. His wrestling is obscene. That's a great way to put it. His wrestling is obscene. And if you can't compete – like this one thing that I said about Dricus after that fight was like that gap – [1:36:27] is so wide that's like jumping across the grand canyon you're not going to make it like you would have to start you'd have to get a time machine go back to the time when you're six and start wrestling in dagestan like you've you've got to like have those kind of skills to compete with that guy yeah only an elite wrestler who can also strike is going to be able to fuck with that guy [1:36:49] Unless he gets silly and decides to strike with someone. [1:36:52] This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew, the number one brand for better sex. Blue Chew just dropped something crazy. Blue Chew Gold. Blue Chew has made it easy for 5 million men to get hard, but now they've made it easier to get horny too. Blue Chew Gold gets your brain and body on the same page fast. Other options just help blood flow, but gold combines [1:37:22] and two, boost arousal and intimacy. So for a good time, go to BlueChew.com. And we've got a special deal for our listeners right now. When you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third free with promo code ROGAN. You also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. Blue Chew is number one for a reason.

[1:37:52] This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here and the watch parties will be going back to back to back. But don't worry, Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered with 30% off all orders from Aldi, Kroger, and Dollar General. All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy delivered straight to your door like chips, dips, wings, guac, and fresh [1:38:22] Locked in on the game, all the hosting, none of the hassle. Order now for 30% off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time. Offer eligible for 30% off entire order. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Offer valid through July 5th. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. I'm going to make KO them. [1:38:47] Other than that, I just can't see anybody fucking with that guy. [1:38:51] Yeah, I mean, it's, I guess, needs somebody stylistically to match up to really... Bo Nickel. Yeah. But Bo has to grow as a fighter. You know, he has to grow as a fighter, and he's doing that. I mean, he's an unbelievably dedicated and disciplined guy. And if anybody can do it, he can do it, because he's got that elite wrestling. Like, if they had a wrestling match, it would be fantastic. But... [1:39:16] Shamayev is a much better striker right now, at least. [1:39:19] has been up until this last fight with Vieira, which was a huge knockout. But Vieira was kind of a standing target for Bo. What did you think of the Usman positive test result?

[1:39:30] Kind of interesting. Oh, the bigger Usman. Yeah, his older brother. Yeah, duh. That's a duh. He's fucking huge. Yeah, I mean. Unfortunate, you know, because the heavyweight division is so devoid of talent. Yeah. Gable Stevenson is the fucking guy. Yeah. That's the guy. [1:39:49] That's the guy. He's not even in the UFC yet. I mean, that Olympic gold medalist, fucking freak athlete, 250 pounds, moves like a cat. That's the guy that he's every. I sent a text message to Dana White. I sent him a video of Gable's last fight. I said, everyone's fucked. [1:40:05] Everyone's fucked when this guy comes out. He KO'd this guy with a left hand. He KO'd this guy with a left hand and then took him down as he was knocked out. Watch this knockout because it's so fucking crazy. The speed that this guy has... [1:40:18] First of all, [1:40:19] Really good striking already, and he's only been striking for like a fucking year. [1:40:24] But when he KOs this guy, he hits him with a punch. [1:40:28] Boom, and then takes him down. [1:40:30] Jesus. Dude, everyone's fucked. And then just, I mean, that's just nuts, man. That kind of speed is nuts for a heavyweight. Yeah. Look at that left hook. Boom. Takes him down. Smash. And then, you know. That's like a video game combo. Exactly. And he can do backflips and shit. When he fought in dirty boxing, he knocks the guy out, and then he leaps over the top rope and lands on the apron. Just leaps over the top rope with, like, effortless. Yeah. Freak. Just a real freak. [1:41:00] Thank you.

[1:41:00] Just watch this KO. When he KOs this guy, well, first of all, this guy has no business being in there with them. But this is just boxing. This is what they call dirty boxing. [1:41:11] Boom. So you could ground and pound guys. [1:41:13] So is this like the modern day DC? [1:41:16] Sort of. Oh, he's maybe even better and bigger, a lot bigger. See how he jumped over that rope? Watch that again. Super athletic but kind of unassuming. Exactly. [1:41:26] Well, I mean, not really on assume. He's a fucking house man. He just doesn't. He has higher body fat. Yeah. But look how he jumped over that rope. Oh, yeah. When you see that, of course. Watch it. Show that again. [1:41:35] Yeah, that was insane. Look how the effortless, just effortless leaps over that fucking, that's like five feet. He just jumps over it like it's nothing. And after fighting. After fighting, but literally with no effort. Just hops over it like it didn't exist, lands perfectly. He's a freak, man. And he's training with Jon Jones, and he's training with some of the best fighters, and he's trying to fight every month. [1:42:01] He's trying to get as much experience as he can before he gets into the UFC. And he's coming. And everybody's in trouble. How old is he? 25. Oh, geez. They're all fucked. Yeah. Everyone's fucked. I mean, everyone is fucked. Because there's no, other than John, there's no one that can wrestle with that guy in that sport. And the thing about a guy who can wrestle like that... [1:42:23] If he can strike like that, the problem with wrestling is you're always worried about the takedown. So that opens you up to strikes because you're always like every feint you're thinking is going to shoot for your legs, but then boom, he catches you with a left hook. And the speed that guy has, it's like a lethal combination of athleticism, speed, power, size, and an insane wrestling pedigree. I mean, Olympic gold medalist, as good as it gets with wrestling.

[1:42:53] Before he came in. Similar. Yeah. Similar kind of thing where he's a specialist, you know, but. You're like, watch out for this fucking guy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember DC was like, come on, man. I'm like, dude, I'm telling you. This guy is different. Yeah. [1:43:07] Because I had been a huge fan of Pereira when he was fighting in glory. And, you know, you'd watch him hit guys and they'd go flying across the ring. Like, what the fuck is that guy made out of? [1:43:17] And when you like, when I interview him, like I put my hand on him. [1:43:20] It's like this table, dude. He's, like, made out of oak. Like, he's fucking dense. Yeah. And there's something about the way he throws punches. Have you ever seen him punch that machine? You know that machine that, like, generates? It's, like, effortless, but it's, like, super high power. He hit it with his right hand because his left hand had been bothering him, and he got 190. [1:43:42] Like, Francis Ngannou got a 129. He got a 190 with a right hand. It's fucking insane, dude. [1:43:50] 150 with a kick. [1:43:51] This guy got 190 with a punch. 190 is insane. And it's his right hand. I bet his left hand is probably 200. It's fuck. See if you can find that video. [1:44:02] I got deleted from the way I was. [1:44:03] It got deleted? The way it was being advertised when you Google it is not. It broke the internet. People like hide it. Somewhere else. Bro, he hit so hard that Mark Goddard, after he fought Khalil Roundtree, after he just beat Khalil Roundtree across the octagon. Mark Goddard, when they were announcing the KO and raising his hand, Mark comes up to me at the end of the fight. He goes, the sound, the sound it makes when that guy hits people is ungodly.

[1:44:33] is mate. He goes, it's ungodly. Watch this. [1:44:36] 170. [1:44:49] Yellow. Pray that again. [1:44:51] play that just look at the force that this guy generates there's something about there's it's the leverage because of his tech that's us watching it [1:45:02] one man in the [1:45:06] Oh, my God. That's nuts. That's nuts. [1:45:10] He's got – power is a weird thing, man. You're born with it like nothing else. Like there's a lot of skills that you can acquire, but there's a threshold to how hard you're going to be able to hit. And I think it's based on body mechanics. It's based on the frame. It's based on the size of your hand. He has massive hands. It's based on – there's just a lot of factors, explosive, fast twitch muscle fiber. Some people don't have a lot of it. Some people are more of an endurance fighter, and they don't hit as hard. [1:45:40] but they could just get you with combinations and they put you away eventually. But Pereira's different, man. It's like... [1:45:49] Like David Goggins always likes to say, he's uncommon amongst uncommon men. Yeah. It's interesting that his chin seems to be holding up really well. At life anyway. Yeah. And he has been knocked out before he's getting older and he seems fine. Yeah.

[1:46:05] Well, it's because he's not cutting weight anymore. There's nothing that fucks your chin up more than dehydration. When he was losing weight, he was getting down to 185 pounds, and he was weighing in the day of the fight at 226. 226, weighing in at 185, you cut weight, and then rehydrating up to 226 a day later. [1:46:26] Damn. Like, you don't rehydrate your brain, man. And so you can't take shots. You can't take shots as well. And it's a common thread amongst fighters. Like, Jack Hermanson... [1:46:35] He got knocked out by Gregory Rodriguez. [1:46:38] at 185 and gregory rodriguez is another one he's a freak just a giant 185 like it doesn't even make sense you're standing next to him i weigh 200 pounds and i stand next to him a little short me and i'm like how [1:46:49] How the fuck are you 15 pounds lighter than me? That's not even – this is science. It doesn't even make sense. And so Jack went down to 170 and just got KO'd the other day. Bad. Just bad. Because I think that you're way more vulnerable – [1:47:07] Like Frankie Edgar is a perfect example because Frankie, when he was in his prime at 155, didn't cut any weight. He was one of the rare guys that was a 155-pound champion that was actually 155 pounds when he fought. [1:47:21] And just – [1:47:22] amazing durability because of that. Because he didn't dehydrate himself. So he was like optimal. And there's like this point of diminishing returns. [1:47:32] Where you're physically bigger, you're stronger, but you can't take shots.

[1:47:37] And you also fatigue quicker because your body essentially almost died 24 hours ago. Yeah. I mean, these guys get to death's door to make weight. Their whole face is sucked in. Their eyeballs are pulled back in their head. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. Yeah. [1:47:51] Yeah, I think more attention is going to come to how to actually ensure your brain stays safe in the sports for longevity purposes as people kind of realize how impactful, like, the weight cutting especially can be. But also, like, if you end up getting knocked out, you might not come back to Sam. And some of the strategies that should be employed after those fights as well to actually restore as quickly as possible and avoid permanent degradation. Well, it's like there's two schools of thought. [1:48:21] We need to expand the weight classes so we have more weight classes and we need to somehow or another institute some sort of hydration policy where you cannot dehydrate yourself and weigh in and pretend that you weigh 170 when really you weigh 210 because there's a lot of guys doing that. And the other school of thought is they should be able to hydrate with IVs. [1:48:43] Yeah. Because they used to be able to hydrate with IDs. The blood brain barrier like and the hydration of the brain, it takes much longer to rehydrate your brain than it does to rehydrate your muscle tissue. Yeah. And so these guys are going in there. Their muscles are full, but their brain is dehydrated and they're vulnerable to getting knocked out. And I think that's what happened with Pereira, particularly with the Izzy fight. But Izzy caught him with a picture perfect right hand, just right on the chin and then followed it up with a left hook.

[1:49:13] the durability at 185 that he has at 205. At 205, he's been dropped. Khalil dropped him. Guys have dropped him. And, you know, Ankalyev rocked him. But he can take it. He can take it at 205. Yeah. And now he's talking about going all the way up to heavyweight. [1:49:29] Which is kind of crazy. Yeah, I mean, like, all power to him. If he does, fuck. Who doesn't want to see it? Oh, yeah. I mean, I would love to see him fight Jon Jones at the White House. And what's your ideal White House card look like? Jon Jones. [1:49:42] Versus Pereira, for sure. Conor McGregor versus Michael Chandler. That would be awesome. You know, you want to have some fun. Like, that's a fun fight. [1:49:52] And then you would probably want like Islam Makhachev versus Ilya Tuporia. [1:49:58] That would be insane. Maybe even at 155. I don't know if Islam even wants to make 155 anymore, but Ilya said he would fight him at 170, which is crazy because Ilya is smaller than me. [1:50:10] What's his walk around weight? I don't know. I don't know, but that's another guy that has the touch of death. There's guys that just have freaky power. Hopefully he doesn't let his personal shit derail whatever is happening. I know. Like you're in your late 20s and it's like not the time, bro. I know. It's crazy. I don't know what happened. [1:50:28] I don't know what happened with the wife. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but, I mean, you can't – I'm sure the Internet has their speculation, but the timing is very odd with, like – [1:50:38] one of these interviews he did where somebody was – [1:50:41] almost seemed to plant in his head that like, if you meet a,

[1:50:46] a wife in Miami that she's probably like not a, you know, good, uh, [1:50:52] Is that where he met her? I think so, yeah. But he lives in Spain. And somebody jokingly said... [1:51:00] Oh, you met, like, it looks like you can meet quality women in Miami. Crazy. Like, you would have never thought. And then he was, like, visibly shook. Yeah. [1:51:07] He was like, what do you mean by that? Oh, no. And the guy was like... [1:51:11] Did I just offend you and you're gonna fuck me up or like what is happening right now? And he would just seem to like almost internalize that. [1:51:18] Is there a reason I shouldn't trust Miami women and I haven't considered it? And then it's just like, you can't help but think with the timing, the fucking wheels are turning. Oh, God. I didn't know that he met her in Miami. I don't know if that's even true. Or if it even is, like, relevant at all, but it's just weird timing. I would imagine it's relevant. [1:51:35] Meeting a woman in Miami. I mean, the fact or certainly support that it's like a more likely chance that she's not the person she represented herself as potentially. Well, not just that. It's the culture of Miami. I always say that if you want to starve to death, open up a bookstore in Miami. [1:51:52] People are just partiers. It's like, you should have a passport to go to Miami. It's barely America. Yeah. It's fun. It's a great city. A lot of fun. Yeah. But it doesn't really lend itself to, like, the kind of, like, sturdy stay-at-home mom support for a world champion because – [1:52:10] The discipline involved in being not just a world champion, but a world champion on Ilya's level, like a two-division dominator, goes up, knocks out Charles Oliveira like it's nothing. Not only that, it had a celebration the night before the fight. Celebrating his victory. That was almost like Gordon Ryan shit, like times two. Times two. Yeah. And even apologized to Charles. I'm sorry it has to be you. I love you. You're a great guy. Sorry it has to be you. Like super respectful of Charles.

[1:52:40] legend. [1:52:41] And then flat lines him in the first round, like he said he was going to. He's like, trust me, I'm going to knock him out in the first round. One punch. Boom! Touch of death. It's like there's guys that have – and for him, it's like not a big guy, right? Like not extremely muscular. Like there's nothing – he's not massive, but – [1:53:00] It's mechanics. His mechanics are fucking perfect. His timing is fucking perfect. Belief in himself. [1:53:07] technique everything it's like all the above but [1:53:10] It's like there's guys that you can't let hit you. [1:53:14] And Ilya is one of them. And I think that probably carries all the way up to 170. I just don't. [1:53:19] I mean, the difference between, so 170, look at him, and then look at some of the big 170s, like Jack Della Maddalena. He's a fucking big guy. Like, there's, like, big, like, Michael Van Apege. He's fucking huge. That would be a nightmare matchup. [1:53:36] For Ilya. If he really did decide to go to 170, a guy like Venom, because you can't hit that guy. [1:53:41] Like, if you can't hit that guy and he can hit you and he's a point fighting champion. So that is the absolute best style of the blitz of, like, being able to close distance quickly. Nobody does that like that MVP. He's the best at it. The best at it maybe of all time. Yeah, I wonder if it would be kind of like when Canelo tried to go up and then it was kind of like. And he fought Bival. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that sort of being. [1:54:05] The outcome where it's not as – Yeah, could be. But Canelo, it's like later in his career, you know.

[1:54:11] But it's like... [1:54:12] There'll be a giant problem. But also you have the disadvantage if it's actually MMA versus just boxing. But yeah, the guy is one of the most exciting guys to watch. He's a great representative, too. When he was on your show, dude. Oh, he's amazing. Oh, my God, dude. It's like, could you have said more right things? Yeah. Isn't it better to just not talk about any of it publicly and just keep your relationship shit private? I think most of your life you should keep it. [1:54:42] is way worse for people than it is good, especially Instagram. I think many a person has ruined their life on Twitter. Many a person has said things on Twitter that's tanked their career, ruined their life. You know, it's just... [1:54:58] The motivation to get attention for your words and your images is very toxic. It's very dangerous. And you're playing with explosives. It's just not smart. It's just not a good thing to engage in. [1:55:12] I am much happier when I rarely am on social media. And so I like dip my toes in, see what everybody's mad about, and then I get the fuck out and move on with my day. And I never try to portray myself differently. [1:55:25] in any way other than who I actually am. I don't... I'm not interested in some fucking... You know, some... [1:55:32] video montage with fucking music and inspirational quotes if somebody else makes that that's fine i'm not involved but i'm not putting anything like that up and checking the likes get the fuck out of here that's bad for you i think it's bad for you the good and the bad the negatives the people hating on you is bad for you like oh that's not me at all hey why are you saying that and then the good's not good for you either because you start believing your own bullshit and think your shit

[1:56:02] It's crazy. It's bad for you. It's the opposite of mindfulness. It's the opposite of being in the moment. It's the opposite of that because you're like living for other people's attention that you don't even know. [1:56:14] You don't even know these people and you're allowing them to comment on like your wife and your family. You're holding her hand and you're renewing vows. You're on your knee presenting her a ring in a video. What the fuck are you doing? Why would you do that? That's a private thing. If it's real love. [1:56:33] Between the two of you. And if it's like, if you're really working, work hard in silence. What is this? What are you doing? Like, what is all this about? But it's just for likes. Everybody is addicted to these likes. I want to see the numbers. [1:56:46] Only 6,000 likes? This is crazy. I bared my soul for you. I just think it's really bad for people. And also, it's like most people don't know what fame really is. They think they do. And then they get it. And then they think they can manage it. And then the fucking psychology behind it and the spinning that goes on in your mind when you're trying to go to bed and you're worried about all the mean things people are saying about you. It's like, oh, no. [1:57:14] Ugh. [1:57:15] It's just bad. It's just not good. What's the strategy now for you? Do you have burner phone or, like, how do you – [1:57:21] Do you just like divorce yourself? I just don't read it. I don't read anything. And I don't. You did a burner phone for a while. Yeah. I, well. Or just fucking annoying. Ultimately, I do have a burner phone. Well, I don't have a burner phone. I have a phone that I give to people that are just annoying or that I don't really want to. Like I leave it at home. I never check it. So there's certain like business stuff. And I don't want business stuff to be entering into my life all the time. So I want to. I have like regimented times where I check things and respond to people.

[1:57:51] phone number, which I'm changing soon, is going to be no social media at all. And then my other phone number, I'm just going to do that with it. I'm just going to do my social media posts, all the stuff that I have to do, like, hey, I got a show coming up, or hey, this guy was great. It's a podcast happening. Post and ghost is what I do. Post, then get out of there. But I'm not going to have any social media on my new phone. I just generally think it's bad for you. And it gets in the way of, it's an abuse of precious resources. That's what I think. [1:58:21] Do you have, like, podcasts and stuff on it? Or, like, how do you – do you entertain yourself with actual social media? No, I'll entertain myself with YouTube. It's hard to not, like, have this shit infiltrate when you have, like, a taste of it. It's like, before you know it, you're sitting on the toilet looking at social media or something. Yeah. That's another nice thing that I like to do is not look at my phone when I'm on the toilet. Just go to the toilet. [1:58:44] And just leave it there. I've been leaving my phone on Do Not Disturb too, which is also a nice thing. I like doing that. Put it on Do Not Disturb and check it occasionally. Every now and then check it. And you know you can set up Do Not Disturb where certain people can get through, like my wife can get through, my kids can get through, best friends can get through. But it's just like I think that for the most part what you're – [1:59:04] What you're doing is you're using very valuable resources on things that aren't valuable at all. Yeah, it's part of the reason I work best late at night as much as I would love to have the perfect circadian rhythm and, you know, go to bed at the perfect time and align it with the sun going down. It's like the only time my phone and all the stuff is not blowing up. It's in the middle of the night and I can just focus and not have to think about stuff.

[1:59:28] blasting me. Me too. My best writing is always late at night when everyone's asleep. [1:59:35] Also, it's like [1:59:36] There's something about late at night where the world seems a little bit more crazy that I think my mind is like a little more tuned to danger and chaos. And just like it seems like more heightened because it's dark out. You know, it's dark out and everyone's asleep. I'm like, what is the world really made out of? Like, that's where I do my best thinking. It's funny because when I look out, I just see like calm. There's no traffic. Yeah. And I'm just like, this is nice. That too. But night is when I worry about war. That's when I worry about. Oh, my God, dude. [2:00:06] I know. It's not good. Sometimes I let it... [2:00:10] get in my head. That's when I get my most anxiety about the future of the world is at night. [2:00:15] There's something about that. Do you still smoke weed a fair bit or... [2:00:20] Allegedly. [2:00:21] Yeah. How does that impact? It's great for writing. Oh, that's not good for paranoia. [2:00:26] That's what I was asking. Yeah. Well, it makes you hypersensitive to danger. Yeah. It is, too. Yeah. But it's really great for creativity. For creativity, there's nothing like it. And for comedy, it's a steroid. It's like the best – [2:00:40] It is the best performance-enhancing drug ever created for writing comedy. Oh, really? Yeah, there's nothing like it. Especially edibles. You have thoughts that you're like, okay, I don't even know if I would ever have that thought without weed. Weed wrote that joke. I barely had anything to do with that. What's the ideal edible dose? Depends on your tolerance. Zero tolerance. Oh, 10. 10 milligrams might fuck you up, though. Maybe five. Maybe five is good.

[2:01:10] I think L.A. has a 10 milligram threshold. I think you can only get 10. That's the highest you can get. 10 is a lot for someone who doesn't do it. [2:01:21] Joey Diaz will pop, like, a 250. He'll pop two 50s. He's a fucking freak, though. Like, his tolerance is like nothing I've ever seen in my life. He used to dose people. He would take, like, a 25 milligram edible, and he'd take the wrapper off and put a 250 milligram edible in and give it to his co-host. Oh, my God, dude. It's like, I think it's funny, but, like, I'm not. [2:01:47] It's only funny because it's Joey. [2:01:51] what the fuck is wrong with you? But when Joey does it, it's just like, oh my God. So you just think you're dying like unreasonable or something? You just know and he's over there laughing. Ha ha ha! And you're just sitting there spiraling knowing that he fucked you up. Yeah. He just always says, I want to see the devil. He goes, fuck this mic with those things. I want to see the devil. He likes seeing the, he likes getting freaked out. [2:02:11] He likes it. [2:02:12] But, I mean, for creativity, I think it has a place. That's the comedian juice right there? Yeah, I think, you know, not for everybody. Some people don't like it at all. You know, I know some really great comics that are stone cold sober. And for them, it's just they just like to sit and think. But a lot of the best ones that I know, they have switched over to either a flip phone. [2:02:34] or a phone with nothing on it, no social media at all. [2:02:39] I think eventually you realize like that time you're spending, which is scrolling mindlessly through things as such. It's such precious resources. Your time. You only have so much time in a day and you're spending time just looking at nonsense.

[2:02:54] But also, the other side of it is... [2:02:57] you do want to have your finger on the pulse of society. You want to kind of know what's going on in the world. Yeah, if you're a comedian, how do you even talk about pop culture and stuff that's trending or whatever? Well, interestingly enough, I get sent enough things. [2:03:11] Oh, it's like consolidated for you? Yeah. I get sent enough things by my friends that are fucked up that I don't have to go looking. So I go, Jesus, is that real? And then I'll maybe do a search and find out that it is real and then read about it and go, what? But that I think is probably valuable because it's keeping you informed. It's the endless, mindless scrolling that I think is the most detrimental and the one that robs you of the most time. Because you could be sitting down at the kitchen table and all of a sudden – [2:03:41] You have this plan for the day, you're going to get going, you're drinking a cup of coffee, and then 45 minutes is gone. [2:03:45] You get a brutal fucking workout in 45 minutes, but you didn't do anything. There's nothing more guilty feeling than having wasted your six to eight really sharp mental hours, any part of that, on something that dumb. I feel so bad when I do it. When I have done it in the past, I just feel like it's such a good reason. And it's like, how did I do it again? Yep. How did I let it get me again? Yeah, it's like you feel like an idiot or like a druggie or something. Well, you are. You're a low-level druggie. It's a low drug. It's not even a good one. [2:04:15] like, I feel great. This is amazing. It doesn't even do that to you. [2:04:20] Yeah. Sean, Sugar Sean O'Malley had a great quote. He said, even when I'm just regular scrolling, even if it has nothing to do with me, he goes, I get a low level anxiety.

[2:04:30] And I'm like, yeah, me too. Like, it's weird. And I think that low-level anxiety is like a little bit of, as you know, you're wasting your time. [2:04:37] Yeah, for sure. When he fought Marab the second time, he got totally off social media for like months and months. Oh. [2:04:44] Probably the best strategy. Yeah, it still didn't help. You know? Yeah. I mean, at least he put in, like, did what he thought would work, though. Did his best. There's a lot of people that will succumb to the pressure at the max level and check the, you know, what people are saying about them, who's going to win. That's the worst, man. Watching your training footage you posted. Seeing if people like it. Fuck this guy, talking about whatever. Yeah. I mean, some people thrive on it. They like haters. [2:05:12] Bodybuilding is the worst sport, too. I'm sure it's just as bad as an MMA, but it's like... [2:05:16] your entire physique is like your social media brand. So it's like you post your physique and then the feedback you get is, [2:05:24] You kind of have to look at, I guess, because it's like what you compete with, too. So you're literally taking judge feedback that's subjective and... [2:05:33] taking what they're telling you is wrong with your body to fix and then you're just bombarded by people in the comment section are like you lost because of this you're lazy how'd you not get in shape. [2:05:44] Even down to the lighting on stage can make you look... [2:05:47] much worse than you actually are. I'm like, you showed up with soggy glutes, bitch. And it's like, I'm fucking shredded. Like, what are you talking about? Soggy glutes is hilarious. Yeah. And it's like, back in the 90s, I don't know what it was, but it was like some of the lighting too was almost so bad that it gave this granular, sharp, kind of like pixelated, but like etchy look to the physiques. And it would look like they were more cut and defined and just better down lighting overall.

[2:06:17] out with the high resolution and like the perfect... [2:06:20] I want to say perfect. It's like almost overexposed lighting to show what's going on on the stage that they look watery and fat, even when they're like, and I say watery and fat, like, you know, like the, like the perception of the fitness industry. It's like proportional to what you're expected to look like, but it's like, they could be shredded out of their mind and like having worked so hard to show up in shape and then just get like decimated online from some fucking keyboard warrior. [2:06:50] the fucking elliptical you know well it's also like bodybuilding is the sport of ego right because it's only about what you look like yeah it's crazy that's the whole thing it's not about how fast you are like look look gable i was like he's not shredded yeah you know but he's the ultimate freak yeah you know look like bj penn in his prime like there's a lot of guys who are they were never shredded they they were always just smooth and fuck people up david benavita is another one like [2:07:20] elite, world-class boxer, light heavyweight champion. Got a little muffin top. Did you see his last fight? Benavides fought Anthony Yard. [2:07:30] Okay, perfect contrast. Just happened last weekend. Oh, I missed that one. Yeah. Yard is fucking shredded. He's an Adonis. He is a Greek god. He's literally like, you look at him, there's no way if you saw the two of them, you would say that guy on the left that has no abs and is smooth is going to fucking destroy the guy on the right. Nobody would believe it. See if you can find...

[2:07:54] Yeah, the two of them together. [2:07:56] There's no way there's no way David Benavidez is one of the scariest guys alive because he's relentless He's so fucking skillful. He's so fast is brutal combinations But he's so unimpressive physically looking at him and in yard looks like like you would expect in a movie like the perfect the perfect scary Opponent like there's Benavidez. I look at him. I mean it looks like an athlete right looks in shape But now what do you see yard? I? [2:08:26] first and [2:08:27] All right. [2:08:27] Look at you are. Oh, shit. [2:08:30] Shredded. Yeah, like fitness model. Fucking shredded. And brutal power, too, but it just... [2:08:35] Couldn't fuck with Benavidez. See, go way deep into the fight before he stops him. [2:08:42] Yeah, I mean, Benavides was just putting it on him. [2:08:46] Just standing right in front. And Yard, the thing about having that much musculature, there's just a reality of the oxygen. Yeah. Just beat the shit out of him, man. And Yard's really good, man. He's a really good boxer. But Benavidez, like, look at the difference in the physiques, man. His physique is perfect. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like a limitation for some people where you're just, like, sapping up so much oxygen carrying capacity to supply the tissue. But it's also there's a skill gap. [2:09:16] Vidas is super fucking skillful. And this is the guy that people say Canelo has been avoiding. [2:09:22] He kind of probably has because Benavidez is the up-and-coming Mexican champion that everybody loves and Canelo is the king and everybody was like, this is the big fight at 168. And so Benavidez had to go up to 175 to get big fights because Canelo wouldn't fight him at 168.

[2:09:41] Huh. Canelo is, uh, is he just kind of like picking and choosing? Look at this, bro. Come on, man. This fucking guy's good. He's so good. How old is he? He's young, man. I think Benavidez is, is he 28? Yeah. [2:09:54] How old is David Benavides? [2:09:57] He's young. [2:09:58] Okay. Young and elite and going through his prime right now. Hold a Z. [2:10:05] 28, yeah. I know. Yeah. In his prime. You know, he's even more unassuming is like half the NHL players that play hockey. Oh, really? Oh, dude. Like, have you ever seen somebody look more like a frat bro who does not play sports? NHL players. Well, those guys have crazy cardio. Yeah. Crazy cardio. But you would never think. Like, I used to bounce downtown Vancouver, and we'd have the teams come by that would play the Canucks, and they would come party at the Champagne Lounge and the club that I was bouncing at. [2:10:35] He'd be like, [2:10:36] this guy is like you know a professional athlete it'd be the whole team and half of them looked like you know some dude that's like you'd do like a fucking keg stand with it like you know a party and that's like the max of his athletic capacity is being like held up to chug some beer or something well i bet those guys drink a lot over yeah i mean out of all the athletes that drink it's got to be hockey players at the top of the heap right yeah and they're uh they're fucking

[2:11:06] It's all legs. Yeah. It's got to be all legs. I bet they're shredded from the waist down. Yeah, it's crazy seeing the sports-specific translation in actual physiology that's conducive to your sport. You see a sprinter, and it's like, you know he's a fucking 100-meter sprinter. And then you see another guy, and it's like, you might not even think he plays sports. You know, I thought that when I went to the professional soccer team here in town, Austin FC. Okay. [2:11:36] And then like real thin upper bodies. Like they don't use their arms. They don't use, I mean, it's literally, unless you're a goalie, you don't use them. Yeah. So they have like tiny little upper bodies, massive fucking legs and insane cardio because they're constantly sprinting. [2:11:52] They sprint for 90 minutes. I mean, they're just running around sprinting. [2:11:55] There's a couple outliers that do look up Adam Traore, I think it is. I might be totally butchering. But Ronaldo. Ronaldo's pretty jacked. He's jacked. [2:12:06] He's like the hyper-optimizer, too. He really is. Yeah. I mean, that guy won't... Remember, there was a thing where they tried to give him a Coca-Cola, and he fucking took it aside and said, no, agua. Yeah. And Coca-Cola lost like a billion dollars in stock. Whoa, look at that guy. Yeah. Yeah. [2:12:21] Yeah, that guy's a freak. Yeah. Well, there's always going to be freaks out there. Yeah. But it's crazy to see a guy like that excel so well, too, at a sport that you would think he'd kind of be like a – [2:12:31] barely chugging along well it's probably just because he's been doing it his whole life you know and he has unbelievable genetics yeah genetics are a nutty thing man you can't outrun genetics but they don't always help like look at yard yard has perfect genetics right yeah and then benavidez you would look at him and go oh that's not the best genetics like if he was a bodybuilder you'd like get the fuck out of here yeah it's crazy too because sometimes you might just have like nice looking around muscle bellies but you don't actually have like mitochondrial density to

[2:13:01] in just like a show thing. You're just like a cosmetically pleasing athlete, but not actually able to translate it into anything. Yeah, that's weird. I've always thought that was weird. I always thought that was weird and striking, because there's a lot of guys that are just built like fucking brick shithouses, and then you see them hit the bag and be like... [2:13:19] This is nuts. You have zero power. It's weird. [2:13:22] Yeah, and it's like you would think objectively more muscle equals, but sometimes they're, like, weak as shit even in lifts. It's just, like, the development, the hypertrophy they get from it is just disproportionately better. That's weird. Can that be optimized, though? Like, if they have, like... [2:13:36] unbelievable looking physiques is it just that they're not doing as much because they don't need to to look great i think there's definitely specific training for purposes that would be conducive to sport that maybe they some might be neglecting for sure and ways to optimize for like like for example [2:13:53] You don't do. [2:13:55] hypertrophy work for bodybuilding because it's not conducive really to what you're trying to get. And I think some, some people they want the best of both worlds and they want to like look the part and also perform. So they might be sapping bandwidth that could be allocated towards more optimal things that don't make them, you know, as cosmetically pleasing. Yeah. There's definitely things you can do from a support standpoint when it comes to, you know, nutrition, supplementation, et cetera. But like you are ultimately going to be capped to some extent by, uh, [2:14:25] genetic coding when it comes to like density of certain receptors and like you can upregulate it to whatever capacity you can, but like you can only push it so far before you've kind of, you know, chapped out. It's interesting because like the really bulky guys, they just never have the same fluidity.

[2:14:41] The guys that are built like Benavidez have, where the punches flow and these effortless combinations, perfect technique. The really jacked guys that look like they're destroyers. [2:14:52] flexibility is so much more limited too when you're like that though. Oh yeah. Yeah. Unless you really work at it. Yeah. Really work at it. Yeah. And you have to, [2:15:02] have a intentful approach to making sure you can maintain, you know, the flexibility that might otherwise just be. [2:15:09] innate to somebody who doesn't have to deal with a giant deltoid that like... Right, right, right. You know, Jocko? You know, Jocko? Yeah, yeah. You know, I've hunted with him before. And Jocko, like... [2:15:20] a correct archery release. Correct archery release is you're supposed to get a surprise shot. So as the shot breaks, your arm kind of goes back like this. Jocko is so jacked and he has such limited motion that his archery release is like this. [2:15:35] Like it doesn't – but he's doing it correctly. But it doesn't move the same way. It's all just choco smash. He's just – his body is designed to choke the shit out of you. That's all it's for. His body is designed to get a hold of you, take you to the ground, snap your fucking arm in half. That's what it's for. It's just force and strength and it's funny. I'm like, does your arm not move that way? He's like, no, it doesn't go back. I'm like, that's funny because I'm watching him. I'm watching his archery release. [2:16:05] Perfect. [2:16:06] But there's – you watch like a Levi Morgan, a world champion pro archer. Like as the shot breaks, their arm just goes back like naturally, just like flows. His just goes – it just moves a little bit. When I was at my peak of bodybuilding size, I was in the middle of a job as a lifeguard and teaching swimming lessons to kids. And part of the teaching swimming lessons would involve showing how to –

[2:16:30] This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. Doctors' offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more. [2:17:00] like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, they'll alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Even better, alerts are automatically activated the moment you become a LifeLock member. No extra work on your part. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Don't wait. Join LifeLock now. Visit LifeLock.com slash J-R-E and save up to 30% your first year. [2:17:30] slash J-R-E for 30% off. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by 8 Sleep. Okay, when it comes to sleep, [2:17:39] I've got to have the right temperature dialed in, depending on the time of year that might be ripping hot. I'm talking volcanic or igloo levels of iciness. The point is, I need the temperature to be just right so I can get deep sleep, the kind of sleep that drives real recovery. And luckily, 8 Sleep is all about giving you the best sleep possible.

[2:18:09] regulating the temperature on each side of the bed in real time. Why? So you and your partner can consistently hit your ideal deep restorative sleep range and wake up feeling truly refreshed and recovered. Use my code Rogan at 8sleep.com slash Rogan for up to $350 off the Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is that you get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. [2:18:39] love your investment in better sleep. That's code Rogan at eight sleep.com slash Rogan. Dude, the different strokes of, you know, back crawl, front crawl, breaststroke, all the different things. And when you're like a 265 pound bodybuilder, [2:18:54] it gets pretty difficult because not only do you just sink harder because you're mostly muscle, but also... [2:19:00] Like, just even trying to get a straight arm past your head, it's impossible. So I actually had to stop teaching swimming. [2:19:08] Your ears, your fucking shoulders are slamming into your ears. Like, it would look like you couldn't even do what you were trying to teach, like, a fucking six-year-old or something. Very few guys work on mobility. A great example of someone who does is Armand Saryukian. Armand Saryukian, who just wanted to beat Dan Hooker two weeks ago or a week ago, [2:19:30] impressive like so he is jacked have you seen armand yeah he's pretty shredded he's a guy that like doesn't pass the smell test there's a way to improve mobility by the way it's just a lot of bodybuilders like do not care right and like there is some anatomical limitations ultimately if there is muscles literally in the way but yeah i just want to put out there like i'm sure i could have figured it out if i cared at the time perhaps but at 265 with your frame oh yeah i would have been

[2:19:58] anatomy, but I had no care for optimizing mobility or anything. I was just like, what's my max bench? Show a photo of Derek when he was jacked, when he was super jacked. Because there's some photos of him out there. You were preposterous. Yeah. [2:20:12] Do you miss those days? You ever look at that physique and go, damn, I look pretty fucking good. No. I mean, I feel like I've come to peace a while ago with not looking like that anymore. It's a lot of upkeep, dude. Yeah, look at you then. Is that your height? I think you were a little bigger than that at one point. Yeah, I think this is like a profile picture. [2:20:32] Yeah, that was a more recent one. It was probably like how I lost 75 pounds in the bottom left is probably – [2:20:39] Yeah, right there. The fat, maybe one of those. That shot probably is one of the big ones. Bro, you got big at one point in time. Was that how you were before you started lifting? Yeah. [2:20:49] Look at that old school BlackBerry you have. [2:20:51] So that dates it just by the phone Oh yeah [2:20:55] Yeah, it was, I was like trying to be a competitive bodybuilder and I just kind of realized that I could look good for, you know, like fitness industry, I guess, for kind of looking jacked for Instagram or whatever and like doing okay at like a regional level for, you know, a lower tier level of physiques. But like bodybuilding to take us to that next level, it was just like a level of stress I wouldn't be able to. [2:21:21] one, be willing to sustain... [2:21:23] And then two, it just wouldn't have been worth it because it was like... [2:21:26] I had tried pushing drugs and, like, I just wasn't responding to a level I knew I needed to to continue and justify using that much. Is it a genetic thing? Yeah. So it's like your androgen receptor content is a...

[2:21:41] uh, largely predetermined. There are some things you can do similar to like mitochondrial density and things of that nature that you can do to upregulate and improve it. Um, and certain supplements you can use, but ultimately, uh, [2:21:53] your number of muscle fibers are going to be limited. Like there's going to be people who are just – [2:22:00] at baseline, you know, Chihuahua-looking humans that if you put them on gear, they just become bigger Chihuahua humans, essentially. But, like, they're never going to be, you know. Jacked. Yeah, they're never going to get, you know, Mr. Olympia caliber. [2:22:14] And there's a certain, like... [2:22:15] muscle belly that's more conducive to looking bigger and also being able to support certain body weights is even like a health thing, too. It's not just how well do you respond to drugs. It's also how long can you take them without dying? You know, so it's like some of the most highest performing and like excelling athletes are individuals who can tolerate this stuff and not go crazy from the. [2:22:39] Some people mentally cannot handle these level of androgens, and it wrecks their sleep. It wrecks their blood work. They get really early cardiovascular disease. Psychologically, too, they go crazy. Yeah, yeah. I've seen deaths in late 20s, mid 30s. There was a guy that was Vitor Belfort's trainer when Vitor first entered into the UFC. So Vitor, when he first fought in the UFC, weighed 200 pounds in his UFC debut when he fought Trey Telligman. That was UFC 12. [2:23:07] And he was like a super athletic, fast, lethal black belt with vicious hands. And then when he fought Randy Couture, he was 240. And his neck started at the top of his head. He just looked like a lion. A giant fucking trap. Yeah, it was just ridiculous. He was just ridiculous. And the guy who was working out with him, this guy Curtis –

[2:23:28] wound up dying very young and we used to call them garden hoses because this guy's veins were he was so vascular it was fucking ridiculous we worked out next to him like bro you got garden hoses for veins this is your fucking insane he was just insane and he was so big like so big 300 plus 5 10 300 plus pounds just he was so big and you know he had vitor convinced that that was the way [2:23:58] one of the sauciest dudes, or at least, you know, he was like the perfect hybrid of athleticism meets like crazy looking physique, I would say, at least at the time, from what I can recall. Well, the TRT Vitor was Vitor. So Vitor on the gear when he was younger and then no gear for a while, low period. And then when they had TRT in the UFC, where they allowed it when it was legal, which was a crazy few years that people call the TRT Vitor years where Vitor was just dominating everybody. Yeah, it was terrifying. [2:24:28] and Overeem are like poster childs. Overeem, that is the poster child. See if you can find a video of Armand Saryukian's mobility workouts. [2:24:38] Do you have it? Because he does really interesting stuff. Stuff I've never seen UFC athletes do, but I would think would be really conducive, especially to scrambles and weird grappling positions where you want to have strength and odd positions of your body where you're stretched out.

[2:25:00] Not bad. There's one on the side just showing. Oh, yeah. I can't imagine. So this kind of stuff. Like this kind of stuff. Yeah. Like, look at this. [2:25:08] Like, look at all these things. So he's doing these kind of things all the time just to maintain that kind of flexibility along with all that mass and all that power that he has. Yeah, getting out of some of those awkward positions, you've got to be able to get into weird spots comfortably and... [2:25:28] Look at that. That's crazy. That's crazy rotation of his back. He's got amazing mobility, but I do have to say he also has back problems. [2:25:39] And it might be one of the reasons why he does this. I mean, yeah, when you go exorcism on the fucking... [2:25:44] I don't think that's what caused it. Honestly, I think it's probably grappling. He's a really elite grappler. There's a video of him grappling with Hamzat and he keeps up with Hamzat and they're two weight classes separated and Hamzat is fucking fantastic. And, you know, they're scrambling and it's like a very competitive grappling session. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a... [2:26:10] And circling back to some, like, you know, the sauce days and, like, the garden hose guy. I do think it's good that the education is out there, though, for people to be able to know how to not... [2:26:19] die from this stuff now. Whoa! That's Curtis. Yeah. [2:26:23] Yeah, that's him. Because back then it would just be like... Go to that photo again in the upper left. [2:26:28] That upper left photo, that's crazy. Guy was so vascular. Like, look at his bicep.

[2:26:33] Fucking bananas, right? Look at that right bicep and his chest. He's got fucking garden hoses on his chest. Full chocolate body. Yeah, full chocolate body. Chocolate face, too. He had a chocolate face. Or Milano tan at the Wazoo. Well, you know the guys that do it now where they keep their face white because they don't want to be called out for having a black face. Have you seen that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. It is funny. Have you seen the, uh, I think we looked at the Milano tan people. [2:26:57] Is that a peptide? Yeah, melanotan 2 is one of the... [2:27:02] I don't know if it's an obscure one, but I guess maybe proportional to some of the more widespread ones nowadays, but it's like a melanocortin receptor agonist. And actually, an analog of it is used for women for... [2:27:13] uh, hypoactive, uh, [2:27:15] like low sexual drive. So it actually enhances sexual drive too. So there's like a component, there's a version of the drug that doesn't tan you, that just like makes you hornier that women are prescribed called and then men, [2:27:28] There's no drug approved, but you could theoretically take it, but it gives you boners and also makes you tanned. If you take the Milano tan, too. Huh. Yeah, so it's like for bodybuilders. And it also suppresses appetite as well. Whoa! It really does that? [2:27:42] That's a weird... the lighting on that one on the right is weird. It's right on the Daily Mail, though, it seems like. No, no, no, dude, this is actually possible. I like how it says that, too. Yeah, you can literally manually become black with this drug. [2:27:57] Didn't some lady take that? She was on one of them Sally, Jesse, Raphael shows. Yeah, she claimed she was black. Yeah. And she's like, "Look at me. What are you going to tell me I'm not?" Yeah. She started talking like, you know. Oh, God. Yeah. How wild. Yeah. What if it did it to your hair, too? It does. Really? Because it's all pigment related. So it does make your hair blacker as well. It makes your facial hair darker. What does it do? Is there something like that for guys that have gray hair?

[2:28:26] Uh, yeah, like it does it to your... Is this the lady? Yeah, this is the lady. [2:28:31] I forgot about this. Look at her boobs, too. Oh, my God. That's crazy. That lady might be insane. Like, I'm guessing yes. And it's like you almost wouldn't even think it's real if you weren't told by somebody that you actually can go that far. Like, it's literally you pick your dose and the exposure to the sun will dictate via the dosage, like, how dark you get. [2:28:56] all the way. Interesting. Yeah. Full chocolate body. Is there any side effects? Yeah, you get really nauseous if you overdo it. It's actually a really potent appetite suppressor, so it's like one of the... Back in the day, you could find my before and after. Type in Milano 10 to More Plates, More Dates, and you'll see my before and after. Yeah. [2:29:17] The last time I used it. And did you use it for bodybuilding? Yeah. Because I'm pale as shit. So, like, for me... [2:29:24] The thought of having a tan was pretty awesome. [2:29:27] There's me with my CPAP mask on. [2:29:29] Why'd you take it with a CPAP mask on? I was just like, I look kind of fucking treaded. I'll take a pic. That's funny. If you scroll down, you'll see my back before and after. [2:29:41] If you keep going, they're right there. [2:29:44] Oh, wow. Yeah, and that's like weeks apart. So it does tan you. Yeah. Dude, you had fucking giant lats, man. That's nuts. Yeah. You could jump off a fucking cliff and fly like a squirrel. Yeah.

[2:29:56] What a weird pose, eh? You're just standing there like... [2:29:58] Yeah, well, bodybuilding is weird, period. Yeah. It is odd. It's just like the whole idea is not the function. It's not performance. It's just looking giant. Yeah, it's like some of the exercises don't even translate the way you think they would, too. Like you get really good at the bench press, and then you do something else that you think is like pushing related or like forced production. It's like, oh, I'm weak as shit here for some reason, even though you thought it would translate. [2:30:22] It's not like a – it's almost training neuronal patterns, too, more than even just, like, the muscle. And you get hypertrophy, but you're also kind of just, like, training yourself to get really good at specific movements in a way that has, like, no application to a lot of sports, typically. Just to look jacked. There are more, like, functional choices, obviously. Yeah. [2:30:43] But, like, the ones most conducive to bodybuilding and not getting injured are oftentimes, like, [2:30:48] You know, the typical kind of like beach body style things. But there are more intelligent choices for sure. It's not all that. That's the thing, though, is like the guys who lift the heaviest and do it, that's a very odd thing. And then they wind up getting fucked. Like Ronnie Coleman wind up really getting fucked up. Ronnie was like famously one of the heaviest lifters as a bodybuilder. And for what it's worth, I'm absolutely not like above this style of training. This is like what I still kind of do, to be honest. [2:31:18] I do. You know, I'm still a fan of bodybuilding. I don't want to speak poorly on it or anything. And we oversee some of the best bodybuilders on the planet right now as well and make sure they can do it as safely as possible because it's still a dangerous sport. And...

[2:31:31] You've got to take modern knowledge to not screw yourself up nowadays. Do you ever tell a guy, like, you just don't have the genetics to ever do this at a professional level? Do you ever have to have that? [2:31:43] conversation with people like you're you're pushing the gear so hard and it's not responding like if i had a friend [2:31:49] I guess maybe similar to your heart-to-heart you had with Shaub about MMA at the time when it was not really worth continuing to expose danger-wise. Yeah. Often a lot of these kind of situations happen in bodybuilding where it's like you have a close friend who's... [2:32:06] taking exorbitant amounts of drugs and you know it's just like [2:32:09] killing him and you know that the like you're not going to make it to the Olympia. So really like what are we doing this for? Yeah. You have better opportunities elsewhere. Like I've had that conversation a couple of times, but in general it's kind of like, [2:32:23] you kind of have to have the self-awareness to know. And I think fortunately that's part of where the education comes in is – [2:32:30] Back in the day, you wouldn't know that you had the bad genetics. You just think everyone's taking more shit than you. Because you wouldn't really... [2:32:37] you thought there was a secret that you didn't know. There was some special drug that they sourced from Europe that you're not getting. Right. You know, they have the secret, you know, fill in the blank thing that the guru at the Olympia level, who's coaching all the top bodybuilders, has, and you just need to get to the next level and get your IFBB Pro Card, and then maybe I'll get to work with that guru, and then he'll give me access to that drug, and then I can take it to the next level. And then before you know it, a lot of these guys are still grinding for drugs,

[2:33:04] really like low level shows or like to place poorly, even at like the entry level of professional, um, [2:33:12] And their health is a wreck and they're not really going to make it to where they think maybe they're on the path to. And so, I don't know. I think the more, you know, transparent look into it has made a lot of people more self-aware to check themselves. [2:33:27] And also to know if they're even... [2:33:29] You have to respond well from a health standpoint, too. It's not just how good do I look in the mirror. If you have wrecked blood work or you have a... [2:33:38] abnormal anatomical structure of your heart before you start subjecting yourself to hormones. These are things that are all checkable now proactively. And you could tell beforehand if you're a good candidate, not just from a muscular response standpoint, but also from a health tolerance standpoint. I wonder what, if any, what, what factor genetic engineering is going to play into bodybuilding? [2:34:01] Myostatin inhibition. Yeah. There is gene therapies that are being utilized now. They're just not that efficacious. Is myostatin inhibitors, are people using them now? Pharmaceutical pipelines are trying to integrate them in order to offset muscle catabolism induced via GLP-1 agonists like semiglutin. Oh, interesting. [2:34:31] actually work now that are not [2:34:33] simply stimming your brain to, you know, to high hell, which a lot of the previous drugs worked like that. Now it's like we have these effective things, but they make you eat so little, right?

[2:34:44] That way now the next thing is there's all this attention on how to lose. [2:34:49] healthy weight. [2:34:50] And not, you know, a bunch of muscle weight because there's more education around the importance of losing, you know, fat and not muscle, which is metabolically active tissue, health supporting. Whereas if you just end up skinny fat, you might be. [2:35:03] no better off than when you started depending on the person. So, so some of the more refined current fully being developed drugs are like these fat loss, uh, [2:35:15] appetite suppressing agents with concurrent like thermogenic properties for energy expenditure and then muscle preservation mechanisms built in that inhibit myostatin or act through other pathways to try and keep the muscle on you yeah brigham from ways to well was explaining that they're using some people rather are using glp1s in conjunction with igf and they're they're combining a bunch of different things to offset the bone density and muscle loss and then also [2:35:45] doing it because a lot of people are just taking them and they're just shriveling because look if you starve yourself you will lose weight but you're going to lose bone density you're going to lose tissue you're going to lose everything yeah that's like one of the i think most important components of the usage of them is especially with you know women who might be otherwise not even integrating it into their regular life they just end up eating less [2:36:06] of what is already... [2:36:08] a nutrient-poor or protein-poor diet and aren't strength training as much as, I guess, proportionally to men. It's becoming more prevalent among women, obviously, which is great. But, like, the bone loss and muscle loss is significant among anybody who is depriving themselves of nutrients like that. And heart tissue, too. Yeah. I mean, everything. That's what's crazy. You're basically self-inducing malnutrition.

[2:36:33] I just... [2:36:34] Can't you just diet? [2:36:36] I mean, it's really a discipline thing, not with people that are severely obese. Like, I'm in favor of GLP-1s for people. Like, if you're 500 pounds, but I do have to say, jelly roll? [2:36:50] Did it. [2:36:51] On the natch. [2:36:52] He did it on the natch. He did not take GLP once. He's not taking nothing, man. That guy is just working out every day, and he just cut all the bullshit out of his life. He got rid of his phone. He didn't have a phone for it. He has one now, but he didn't have a phone for the fucking longest time. [2:37:06] Even his fucking, when you text him, the little image that shows up when you go to the phone, it's a phone with a fucking red line through it. [2:37:15] Yeah. What does that mean? He's not interested in phones, man. He decided not to have a phone for a long time because he realized it was negative for his mental health and he wanted to lose a bunch of weight, but he did it naturally. He really did. He did it just through hard work and discipline and just... [2:37:30] Have you seen the images of him now? No. Bro, there's him on stage with Alexander Volkanovsky. [2:37:38] And he doesn't even look like the same guy. He's lost 200 plus pounds. Oh, nice. He looks fucking great. I mean, it's amazing. One of the things that's tough when it comes to like... [2:37:47] the [2:37:49] that it's more a willpower thing than anything. In many cases, I do think it is. [2:37:54] There are a lot of people with unhealthy behaviors and psychological tendencies to just be – it's easier to be lazy than not and just – It's also the food addiction because you have to eat. But there are some people who just –

[2:38:06] if you ultimately have a genetically higher... [2:38:11] baseline [2:38:12] a perpetual level of appetite signaling it's kind of hard to tell that person like just walk in you know wrench it out bro like you got this and it's like i know a lot of people in the fitness industry look at him look how much weight is this incredible yeah it's great he looks fucking great it's really amazing [2:38:31] No, especially impressive for individuals who are that obese to make that big of a change. It's like... [2:38:37] it's the hardest to make that first step and get that big of a weight. Yeah, and then it's momentum after that. I watched an incredible video yesterday, one of the most motivational videos I've ever seen. I'll send it to you, Jamie. It's this kid, and this guy is out of shape. He's got high body fat, and the video is him saying that he wants to work out like David Goggins for 100 days. He doesn't work out at all. [2:39:07] um, [2:39:08] I'll send it to you, Jeremy. He goes from being this guy who's completely out of shape to – [2:39:15] At the end of the video, he does a fucking Iron Man. You found it? Yeah. So this is the guy. So in the beginning... [2:39:21] In the beginning, he's like kind of fat and like that's what he looks like. And, you know, he's like – [2:39:29] motivated by Goggins. So the first day he runs, he gets up at 530 in the morning and he runs 13 miles the first day. I mean, he's never, he doesn't run at all. He doesn't work out at all. He eats junk food and he's running, he's running past McDonald's and shit. He's all fat. By the end of it, he's doing an ultra, well, he does an ultra marathon halfway into it.

[2:39:49] And then by the end of it, he does an Ironman. And now he regularly runs 100-mile races. He got down to 140 pounds. He's shredded now. [2:39:58] It's really, really impressive. That's awesome. Because it's just all disciplined. Look at the difference. 145. [2:40:04] 9% body fat. He started at 184, 27% body fat. And look, he's all lean now and healthy. [2:40:12] He's running 100-mile races now. It's really amazing because he just did it with sheer willpower and documented the whole thing. He's in agony. His ankle's all fucked up from running, so he swims, and he swims in the pool, and then he decides to swim with weights on. He really becomes obsessed. Have you seen the guy who fasted for a year straight? [2:40:32] Yes, that's an old story, right? Yeah, but I think that's still the record for like longest period of not eating and just like adhering to a diet. And he got vitamin IVs. And the guy who did that, what's interesting is he also lost skin. So his skin shrank along with his body, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that to some extent there's some elasticity depending on how long you've been fed and also like – [2:41:01] I don't know, maybe just the tissue itself. There is some level of... 382 days. I'm sure your body's fiending for energy from anywhere it can find it if there is some way to... [2:41:11] I don't know. But I think the interesting thing is he didn't come around, come out of it looking like a lot of these people do where they have to get all their skin removed. [2:41:19] Oh, I mean, I feel like there's got to be loose skin to some extent. Does he have a shirtless? I don't know. I don't know if there's a shirtless, but that was part of the narrative. His skin actually shrank along with his body because he wasn't eating at all. I want to see that. Does that make sense? I mean, I was trying to play along for a sec, but now I'm like, if there's not a pick, I don't know, dude. Well, it was also, it's 1960, whatever it was. Sounds like an interesting tale that might have passed through the grapevine.

[2:41:49] that though no that sounds crazy and then once you start eating again how do you just keep the fucking floodgates from yeah i mean that's the interesting thing is some people psychologically it's easier to adhere to something when they're full bore and then like i know a lot of people who they'll do commit to a competition because they know i'm accountable to step on stage i don't want to look like shit when i'm on stage and they do it they get a bunch of photos done and then after they go off the rails and they're like right back to where they started within you know a month [2:42:19] Cheers. [2:42:19] They get done with fighting and then they get really fat. It's really common. It's really common because they also develop real eating disorders because you're cutting weight all the time. Yeah. Yeah. [2:42:31] Yeah, I mean, for some of them, it's like you're basically doing bodybuilder shit, essentially. Well, Patty Pimblitt's the best example of a current active fighter. Oh, that guy's crazy, dude. He gets so big. Dude, his moon face is like the best in the league, probably. So here it says, 382 days from June 14th, 1965 through June 30th of 1966, he consumed only vitamins, electrolytes, and unspecified amount of yeast, [2:43:01] acids and zero calorie beverages such as tea, coffee and sparkling water, although he occasionally added milk and or sugar to the beverages, especially during the final weeks of the fast. [2:43:11] Barbieri began his treatment in the hospital, but for most of the 382 days, he lived at home. Okay, it says stool samples were not taken, but he reportedly went up to 48 days between stools.

[2:43:25] Wow. Which sounds crazy, but it's like, what's they're going to... Yeah, what will be coming out? His starting weight was 456, and the fast officially stopped July 1966. He reached his goal weight of 180 pounds. [2:43:38] Wow. Yeah, that's nuts. Next 10 days, doctors placed him on a diet of salt and then sugar in preparation for solid food. Some sources record the fast being 392 days instead of 382. Wow. Now, one of the things that's tough is it's like, even though maybe that case study exists and there's people who just brute force willpower their way through it, [2:44:08] focus on work or anything when they're, [2:44:12] that hungry, and it almost sometimes doesn't even come down to the diet quality as much as somebody might tell them, [2:44:18] Yeah, it does. It does to some extent, but it's certainly getting rid of the shitty processed foods and getting on a good exercise regimen and doing all the things to set yourself up in the best position. [2:44:28] will probably take care of most people, but there are some individuals who just like at baseline, even on the inverse side, I know a lot of people who simply aren't hungry and they have to force feed themselves to gain muscle because they're just perpetually shredded. And they have like the opposite problem because their hunger signaling is so low. So it's like people look at them as an example in the fitness industry of like, oh, this guy has the best discipline. He's like so shredded all the time. And in reality, that guy's like, I hate food.

[2:44:58] There's one guy in particular, his name's David Lade, and he's like, I don't know, like a teenage, well he's like in his 20s now, but teenagers look up to him as kind of like a fitness industry icon of aesthetics. And he's perpetually had a shredded six pack, he's pretty jacked, he's tall, he's handsome, and... [2:45:16] He literally says on camera, I hate eating. [2:45:19] And he's like serious about it. [2:45:21] He's like, I can't stand having to eat meals. What? Yeah. Yeah. [2:45:25] Oh, my God. It's not even just like to be a bodybuilder. He's just like, I don't know. What is he eating? How is that possible? Good, high-quality food. That's a picture I can find. I can't tell. You can't tell. It looks like he's got some fat there. Yeah, it looks like he's got a bunch of extra skin there. I mean, it's just like... [2:45:44] How could he not? Yeah. Yeah, how could he not? Find a picture of that other guy. Who's the guy that they call the most shredded guy alive? Oh, Helmet Shrubble. Yes, that guy. That guy's crazy. [2:45:55] Yeah, find that guy. That's ridiculous. [2:46:02] It's been a while since I've looked at this guy. And then S-T-R-E-B-L. [2:46:08] And... I don't know. [2:46:10] Did they come up? Helmet Shredded is coming up, that guy. Helmet Shrubble. [2:46:14] Is this him? Yeah. [2:46:15] Oh, Jesus. That is insane. Yeah. I mean, that guy's physique is the man with 0% body fat. That's hilarious. That's not possible, folks.

[2:46:28] You want to see even more shredded? Is that really possible? That he's got more, there's someone more shredded than that? Yeah, type in Andreas Munzer. [2:46:36] Oh, I've seen that guy. But what is this guy's body fat? [2:46:39] It's not zero. Zero is not possible. What is that? [2:46:42] Sixth. [2:46:43] Uh, five or six, maybe. No, that would be like stage, super stage ready beyond most bodybuilders, even after the best of the best in terms of conditioning. So I don't know, maybe like six, seven. It's kind of tough, though, dude, because it's like some of these guys, they have like, oh, Jesus Christ. Go back to that picture. That's nuts. That's like aggressive filtering and sharpening to whatever, whatever it is. That's his real body. [2:47:13] Yeah. Even, I mean, it's obviously, like, the best possible lighting for that effect. There's distribution of fat and water that some people, it just looks more... [2:47:24] shredded than another person who might otherwise store any excess fat on, like, their ass or, like, their love handles or, like, whatever. For a guy like that, not only is he diced, and, like, obviously he's just diced, but he has, like, a dry look to the skin that enhances the kind of perceived leanness. And it's, like, I forgot what it is. It's not dick skin lean. I forgot what the terminology is. [2:47:54] something. And it's just like if you're certain white [2:47:58] Physiques are known to look more like you're almost so pale and dry that it like enhances the perceived leanness. If that makes any sense whatsoever. That's the weirdest thing about bodybuilding, right? You have to be super dehydrated to look great and you're almost dead. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to go chocolate body and stuff. But those guys, they black out sometimes backstage, don't they? Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, it's crazy.

[2:48:27] Which guy is that? That's Helmut. That's him? He's got 4% body fat. I might be totally butchering his name, by the way. So if I'm, I hope, Helmut, I hope I'm saying it right. I would never wear a shirt. [2:48:39] why would i wish but it's like you would not he's 47 wow in this article too which is probably like five to ten years old what does it look like now i wonder i wonder if he keeps it up because i mean i would be so hungry yeah i unless you're on a glp oh this is him [2:48:56] This is him now. Wow. That's crazy. No, that's not the same photo. Oh, somebody else put it up there. He has an idea. It doesn't seem like that's one of the weird things when you're such an OG of the industry that you just have like weird residual fan pages and you don't even know if it's the guy or not. What's that old guy? He was bald the old days. He had like the hair on the side. Scooby. [2:49:19] Was that his name? I don't know. Maybe. White guy. He was like famous shredded guy back in the early days of bodybuilding. He was not big. [2:49:28] He was thin, but he was like super fucking ripped. [2:49:32] God, I can't remember his name. Was he a... But he had like the hair on the side, like weird, like old man bald. You know, didn't have a full shaved head. [2:49:40] Old man bald. Yeah, like when people went bald in the 50s and they didn't shave the side of their head. Yeah. Fuck. I'm sure if I saw it, I would know who you're talking. He was famous for teaching... [2:49:53] You got him? I feel like you have enough. What's his name? I don't even get a name yet, but is this him? No, no, that's not him. It's older. I bet you. It's from a long time ago. Who's the, what's your preferred AI search tool? Use that and type in what you just said.

[2:50:07] Yeah, put that into perplexity. Old man bald. Well, I mean. OG fitness influencer. You have to give me a better time period, like 90s, 2000s. Yeah, yeah, 90s. All right. Yeah, 90s. 90s. [2:50:18] Oh, God, his name is at the tip of my tongue. Oh, this is driving me crazy. Super shredded? Yeah. [2:50:26] He would teach people how to be shredded. He had like this protocol for how to lose weight, but his whole thing was being shredded. It wasn't that big. I mean, it was... [2:50:34] You know, fit, but not like, you know, bodybuilder jacked. And he was Caucasian? Yes, yeah. [2:50:39] Huh. Yeah. It's telling me Billy Blanks. No, no, no, no, no, no. White guy. [2:50:45] Fuck. I was going to say Athlean X, but there's no way that's who you're talking about. No, no, no, no. He's got great hair. It's a long time ago. No, Athlean X has got wonderful hair. It's Tony Little. It's not right either. Speaking of hair, there's that new thing that is the study out of UCLA where they're going to be able to grow hair back. Yeah. Isn't that wild? You don't believe it? No. Dude, it's like every week it's some new thing. [2:51:09] re-grew hair after being shaved bald using UCLA-mediated broccoli extract or whatever the fuck. And it's like now every Reddit scientist is dumping fucking broccoli juice on their head or whatever. It just, like, never really pans out ultimately. And it's pretty shocking. I think I even mentioned this at one point that we have all these, you know, refined AI tools and drugs and some of the most developed and refined, nearly side effect-free drugs

[2:51:39] roots of disease, but like hair loss, like no one has a clue how to fix it with a crush. Or dick size. Yeah. [2:51:45] Hair loss and dick size, two big ones. [2:51:48] We know to max out your genetic capacity for dick size, though. Well, the nuttiest thing that I've been paying attention to lately is so many guys that are getting their legs broken to get taller. I got an update on that guy if you wanted to see it. Oh, the Sasquatch guy? Yeah. How's he doing? Well, uh... [2:52:01] I mean, he's walking, but it's, like, not perfect. But it's been a few years, right? Yeah. But he's also, like, the most extreme edge case example of... [2:52:10] It's almost – if it was unfair to you guys, a reference point, it's like this is the heaviest, tallest example. So it's like if anyone was going out – Because he was six feet when he started, and he got to 6'6", and he was not walking like a year later. Yeah. He needed crutches. He said – [2:52:29] Let's see. [2:52:30] Um... [2:52:31] I could send this to you if you wanted to put it up on the screen, or I could just show you here. Yeah, just text it to me. What is he... [2:52:38] Is he okay? I mean... [2:52:40] He got sued by the company that did his... [2:52:44] He got sued? Yeah. Why did he get sued? Because he was talking about all, like, the... [2:52:49] mishaps that happened when he got, because it's kind of like there are good clinics and bad clinics in terms of quality. And he kind of was, I guess, too forthcoming about like I did a podcast with them and they didn't like it. They're suing him. [2:53:03] Yeah. Literally. Well, they did sue him. Yeah. How can you sue someone for telling the truth about a procedure that didn't work out so great? I mean, great question.

[2:53:12] Thank you. [2:53:13] That's what I said. How could you win? Maybe you could sue somebody for a lot of things. Maybe it's just like bury them in fees or something. I don't know. Yeah, probably. Probably. [2:53:21] All right, check. See if this came through. Hopefully my LTE is good. Nope. [2:53:29] Not yet. You can airdrop it to my computer if it pops up. Okay. Yeah, there you go. [2:53:35] Mmm. [2:53:37] All right. [2:53:39] So he's still fucked? [2:53:41] Yeah, one sec. [2:53:43] God damn, man. [2:53:46] yeah it's uh i was watching this guy uh yesterday on instagram this uh fairly thin kid he wasn't wasn't big but he he gained five inches you know he was like five five now he's five ten and he's real happy with it but i was like jesus christ and a year later again in crutches [2:54:05] One year later. It took him a year and a half before he could walk normally. I mean, some people, that's still worth it to not have to, yeah. I guess. Yeah. I mean, if you're five feet tall and then all of a sudden you're 5'7", I guess. Did it come through for you? Yeah, yeah. I was trying to figure out what to play. I airdropped it for you. Oh, I got it. [2:54:23] I got it on the screen. [2:54:24] Okay. So this is 2023. Oh, wow. He did it way back then? Yes. Oh, my God. Look how skinny his legs are. That's crazy how skinny his legs were. [2:54:35] To have that much mass up top, that's crazy. Yeah. That's probably the problem, right? Well, it definitely is, like I said, the most extreme of circumstances to impose for what was seemingly a poor quality clinic and then also trying to go from –

[2:54:53] A height that's objectively tall to a height that's objectively extremely tall with the most heavy guy that's probably ever done the procedure, you would think. Yeah. Well, he's [redacted address] more than that. You would say, like, hey, man, if you're going to do this, lose upper body weight and then gain it back. [2:55:11] So you can give your legs a chance to grow. Oh my God. That's so crazy. It just, it makes me freak out because I'm getting anxiety. They're just going to snap and he's going to fall over. [2:55:20] Yeah, there definitely is something a little bit unnatural about watching even, like, the strikes on the ground. Yeah, his gait. It makes you feel like something's just going to, like... Snap. Yeah, but to his credit, I mean, like, the guy literally couldn't even walk before, and he's... [2:55:35] He's optimistic about it still, and he thinks he's going to make a full recovery. There is now November 2025, so that's two years later. [2:55:42] Two years later, he can walk. What if he has to run from a fire? You know what I mean? Yeah, he's fucked. For sure. Yeah. Well, also the mechanics. Like, your body's used to moving legs that are six inches shorter, and now, like, the knee has different pressure, and, you know, it's got to be really fucking strange. He said, let's see, bones are mostly healed, just have a lot of weakness. As legs strengthen, the pain decreases and the spasms. Also, he's got to be on the sauce, too, right? Yeah. Yeah. [2:56:12] not helping uh i mean if anything it would be it would help in some of the recovery for bone but it would also keep him yoked and like more pressure on that too so like maybe it's uh yeah it's a bit of a double-edged sword there

[2:56:28] This is... [2:56:30] Major hurdles cleared. Infection, knee tendinopathy. We'll probably walk normal within a couple months. I can hop, but we'll need to strengthen much more in order to really jump, jog, and run. Planning to have a U.S. doctor fully fix any remaining issues, but for now, legs are good. Where did he get his surgery done? It was, I did a podcast with him last year, and I think it was Thailand Clinic. Oh, boy. He did a bargain. He did a bargain. [2:56:56] He got a bargain. Did he do a Groupon? It definitely wasn't the best choice. This guy got it? He's nine years post-surgery. They were doing this nine years ago? So this guy, as far as I know, he is a bit of a unique case in that he was actually correcting an asymmetry. So he had – I'm almost positive. I don't want to misspeak. I'm sure he'll correct it if he sees this. But I'm pretty sure he had one leg was, like, unusually asymmetrically shorter than the other one. [2:57:26] would otherwise be his [2:57:28] you know, like genetic symmetrical match. Oh, interesting. So there's different applications to which people do this. And it's not always just like pure vanity. I want to get, you know, really tall. It's sometimes like, [2:57:43] to correct a functional like asymmetry. It's just, you know, a lot of people you hear about the cases of, [2:57:50] I want to get really tall for superficial reasons. It's just a matter of time before they're just genetically engineering everybody to look like Thor.

[2:57:58] You know, this is a matter of time. I think there's a lot of people that don't want this to work, though, too, because it's like... [2:58:04] If it's almost too easy or, like, you know, doable, it's just like some people – I say a lot of people unreasonably shit on these people. And it's just like, you know, just take the content for what it is, you know? Yeah, no, that's true. But what I'm saying about with the genetic engineering, there's a lot of people that are going to not want that to work either. But tough shit. You're not going to hold back science because you don't like the fact that – [2:58:26] Like, especially if someone has poor genetics and they just look gross and their whole life they've looked gross. And then all of a sudden something comes along and is like, what? And now you're a fucking supermodel and you're six foot six and, like, what? [2:58:38] Mike, it's you? What the fuck happened? I went to this clinic in Turkey, and look what they did. Yeah, that was like you were asking about what... Have you talked about this before? [2:58:47] Bone smashing? What? I just saw a video about this and then thought it was fake, but this seems like a place to find out if it's real. Oh, yeah, so people are like... With a hammer? Yeah. What? Whatever they can do. I'm pretty sure this is not like an... It's like a click-baity thing among the people that do this stuff. Wait a minute, wait a minute. He's hitting himself with a fucking hammer? A kid was just using like a trophy, just banging his face all day. He's like, I've been doing this for years.

[2:59:17] like bone remodeling in the area to kind of like, [2:59:21] enhance, like, I don't know, zygoma development or what have you and get better, you know, whatever asymmetry or deficiency they deem to have cosmetically corrected. And some of them, they're just... [2:59:33] punching their face essentially before they go out at nighttime to get like a temporary pump in their cheeks. [2:59:41] So like think about back in the day when you went to the club and you're like, I want to hit some. Do push-ups first? Yeah. [2:59:46] Oh, my God. So it's like you're laughing and they're probably like, bro, it's the same thing. You're fucking punching your cheekbones to get them to stick out more. Oh, God, it's so dumb. There's so much out there, man. Yeah. Listen, man, this is great. Congratulations on this. So for everybody that wants to buy it, Gorilla Mind, I've been drinking it for two hours now, three almost. It's great. [3:00:08] Works. Oh, thank you, man. I feel like I haven't had a cup of coffee the entire podcast. That's unusual for me. But it tastes good, too. How many flavors you got? A lot, man. 15 plus. 15? We've got to narrow it down to the best ones, though, to really dial in the catalog. If somebody wants to buy this, order it. Where is it at? Where is it at? [3:00:26] Uh, GorillaMind.com. We're in GNCs, vitamin shops across the country. We're going to be in Circle K soon and soon to be more spots, hopefully. Congratulations on that. And for everything else that you do, GorillaMind.com. Yeah, yeah. And MerrickHealth.com if you want to get preventative medicine, expert oversight when it comes to diagnostics, optimization.

[3:00:49] etc. All right, brother. Well, it's always good to hang out with you. Very fun. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. My pleasure. And again, congratulations. This is legit. I'm going to buy it. All right. Bye, everybody. See you. [3:01:13] This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. Listen up. Blue Chew just dropped something wild. They're calling it Blue Chew Gold. And honestly, the name fits. The stuff is setting a whole new standard for performance in the bedroom. It's not your typical blue pill. It combines two ingredients for blood flow with two for mental arousal and connection. [3:01:43] It's not just about being able to perform. It's about actually wanting to. And I've got a special deal for you listeners. Right now, when you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third free with the promo code ROGAN. You'll also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit BlueChew.com for more details and important safety information. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. [3:02:13] you to identity theft, doctor's offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own. LifeLock keeps an eye on your personal information, credit applications, finances, and more. And if they find anything

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